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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#611

Post by wgerard »

chunkyfunky wrote: post #573
gwd wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Because some people actually do act like jerks, and we want to be able to tell those people to either stop acting like jerks or go away. > CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Rather, Codes of Conduct are more difficult than you think. The article it…

"On the one hand, I'd love to be able to (for instance) outsource all CoC engagement and enforcement to a specialized body, that could manage a whole investigation / accuser / defense / jury system for a number of different organizations." You know, that's a pretty good idea. And if there were actual laws backing it, then you already have a "working" system. Now I am starting to wonder, should CoCs even try to transc…

> should CoCs even try to transcend the law

Yes? Companies do this all the time with codes of conduct and nobody really thinks twice about it.

Nobody would think it's bizarre that (hypothetically, I don't know what their actual rules are) Coca-Cola has a rule barring employees from wearing a "Pepsi > Coke" shirt to client meetings.

> where we try to legislate for things that are in many cases subjective?

We do this all the time, even in our actual legal system.

"Disturbing the Peace" is one example off the top of my head of something that's incredibly subjective that we consider the purview of the legal system.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#612

Post by foxes »

I'm sorry if you don't understand why someone might be uncomfortable with the slides, picture it happening to you. You give a talk and then someone then goes through your slides, effectively saying "no you are wrong" without really anything substantive at a big conference. I can see why people might see that as a bit uncomfortable.

It is an okay idea but it seems taken too far. People in tech often seem hopelessly socially inept. We all need to learn to do better. Yes in this case the original author of the slides was okay with it, but not everyone will be. The author seems completely unaware of this. They should have it explained to them.

So I do agree it was probably handled poorly. There would have been a better way to resolve this.

But for everyone complaining about how social media/hate groups cancelling people etc etc, think a bit more. This person wrote a blog post which is obviously going to be taken and used as fuel. The title is definitely provocative. The lack of awareness is exactly why we need a code of conduct in the first place.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#613

Post by ghaff »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #593
Hitton wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

> and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication I've long argued that the US should have lots of parties, and adopt pluralistic voting, but then I stopped when it seemed to me that countries that already have this system don't have demonstrably better political outcomes. But your comment pushes me back to the other side of the argument now. It occurs to me that if…

The main problem that arises with large multi-party systems is that the ruling party needs to form a coalition to govern and that may require cozying up to some extreme small party and giving them influence outsize of their numbers.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#614

Post by [deleted] »

ghaff wrote: post #583
chunkyfunky wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that these are table stakes, and I speak as someone whose day job is managing a team that works on a fairly large open source project which is bound by the Linux Foundation CoC. And yes you are right, it is all about the money at the end of the day. But here's the thing; if one of my devs made a gaffe at a conference, they'd have the full weight of myself and the company defending them, they definitely would no…

Personally I'm skeptical about them. People who behave badly will behave badly. People who don't generally won't. The drumbeat of CoCs may make some difference at the margins but I'm skeptical. In any case, as you suggest, a refusal to have a CoC is itself a political statement that sends the message that you don't believe in good behavior and is pretty much a non-starter for that reason. In general, they're well mea…

[deleted]

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#615

Post by wgerard »

bananaface wrote: post #602
gwd wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Because some people actually do act like jerks, and we want to be able to tell those people to either stop acting like jerks or go away. > CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Rather, Codes of Conduct are more difficult than you think. The article it…

Why do you need a Code of Conduct to prevent people acting like jerks? If someone acts like a jerk tell them to stop, and if they don't, take action. IMO you don't need it enshrined in a dodgy pseudo-contract. That's a recipe for more problems than it solves.

For exactly the reason this article is being discussed: Without a code of conduct you're left with an arbitrary line about what "being a jerk" is.

Codifying rules is meant to prevent that from happening, even though as we see it doesn't always work that way.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#616

Post by bananaface »

clusterfish wrote: post #292
chmod775 wrote: post #95

It was clearly a mistake for him to even play along, especially if he was emotionally exhausted already. The best you can do when people are being stupid like this is ignore them. They hold no power over you unless you let them. This whole CoC thing is sadly fraught with virtue signaling psycho-sadists who enjoy playing tribunal. The people who actually cared about fostering inclusive human communities got bullied ou…

They absolutely do have power over you, that's exactly the problem. People who get "canceled" don't just get a nastygram that they can throw in the trash. They are typically banned from speaking, fired / put on probation / "contract not renewed", their reputation is both privately and publicly tarnished such that #1 google result for your name will be that you were banned for CoC violation, damaging your career prosp…

The guy founded Fast.ai. I'd argue he's head and shoulders above JupyterCon. It was stupid of them to pick this battle. I think they will lose.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#618

Post by baobabKoodaa »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #44

There are two categories of rules: ones that are designed to be followed, and ones that are designed to bludgeon people with. Much like how a lot of knife law enforcement is mostly about having a convenient excuse for the police to harass minorities for being at the wrong place and the wrong time, a lot of Code of Conducts seem to me to be mostly about having a convenient excuse to punish and exclude people for havin…

> I'm just glad that this example of the phenomenon was over technical disagreement rather than politics, that makes it much more illustrative.

And how exactly are you drawing that conclusion? You think that people at JupyterCon were genuinely outraged over a presenter expressing his opinion that he likes Jupyter notebooks? I would imagine that liking Jupyter would be an acceptable opinion at a Jupyter convention.

Jeremy has been an outspoken advocate of mask use, which is a highly polarizing political issue in the U.S. at the moment. I think the most reasonable explanation for this attack is that people who disagreed with Jeremy's political opinions (mask use good) found a smokescreen to attack him with (liking notebooks, not being kind).

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#619

Post by pseudalopex »

luckylion wrote: post #546
fdw wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that a CoC should be no surprise to anyone with common sense, it still makes sense to me to have them: First, there are people without common sense. Sooner or later someone will not adhere to the unwritten rules and ask "Who's going to stop me?". Even if you can eject/ban them, it will be quite a mess, as you now seem to enforce completely intransparent and artificial rules. People will (rightly) ask yo…

> People will (rightly) ask you to state the rules before you enforce them. Will they? Lots of communities do just fine without spelling them out. If you go over the line, you get a warning by a moderator etc, or, if you've gone way past the line, you get kicked out. You don't need to know where exactly that line is drawn, because reasonable people don't come close to crossing it. And unreasonable people don't care a…

I don't think I've ever seen a community with more than 1 moderator and 0 written rules. At least not for very long.

I used to help moderate a community. Spelling things out only helped us. Fewer incidents. More consistent moderation. Less litigation.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#620

Post by ppf »

Hitton wrote: post #579
ppf wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me. Have you tried doing that? How do you like being hounded out of your job, and probably your profession, by a braying mob? Edit: I also find it bitterly ironic that the Progressive Bay Area-centric Hacker News is now saying how bad all of this is, after being…

HN users are not monolith. Probably most of us aren't in the Bay Area, many are not even from the USA. Many people here wouldn't give a single fuck about some twitter mob because they live in countries where people are more tolerant of opposite views (and finding out your acquaintance votes other party will get him friendly jab, not excommunication).

Fortunately, I am one of those people. I also despair as I watch the tendrils of US-style partisanship spread here.
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