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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#511

Post by Dylan16807 »

paganel wrote: post #423
ScottBurson wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it seems to me that you're not the sort of person who should be on such a phone call, unless you can get this habit under control.

> unless you can get this habit under control. The OP is not alone in that, I also chuckle/grin when under huge stress (it sometimes also happened when I heard about the very bad health condition of people really close to me), and saying that "one should get this habit under control" is like saying to depressed people just to smile so that they won't be depressed anymore (and it's also like calling depression just a…

In this context you're the disciplinarian. You shouldn't be very stressed in the first place. But if you are, and you can't avoid the chuckling, then you shouldn't be the one making the call.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#512

Post by unityByFreedom »

csnover wrote: post #380
newscracker wrote: post #184

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

Yes nervous laughter is a thing. This whole thing is a mountain of a mole hill that I wish would be settled privately. If it really can't then that's that.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#513

Post by afandian »

csnover wrote: post #380
newscracker wrote: post #184

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives th…

> And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying. I can’t speak to who this person was or why they did this, but I did just want to mention that there is at least one good faith explanation that isn’t straight up bullying. When I am in uncomfortable situations, I have a nervous chuckle. If I were in this call, giving this feedback to this person, I…

This is the strongest argument against zero-tolerance policies (I don't think it applies in this case, but there are plenty). They are fundamentally inhumane.

(You find zero tolerance in schools too. It's heartbreaking to see children doing innocuous things and responsible adults completely vacating any kind of responsibility or accountability.)

If you get a group of people together, everyone's going to have to put in at least a little effort to get along. If the code of conduct doesn't enshrine this then it's almost inevitably going to cause issues.

You may be able to argue that it's not a case of bullying in this narrow instance, but if the policies lead to a one-sided situation with no recourse, then it's bullying at a structural level.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#515

Post by wruza »

CoCs were doomed to this from the beginning. Any set of strict/influential laws should be supported by a proper set of institutions like courts, lawyers, arbitration, judging practice. When you have rules and just a mob, you get nothing but a mob rule of power-hungry people.

Why don't contributors openly reject this stupid system (not the rules themselves, which sound fine) and unseat these self-proclaimed procurators is beyond me.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#516

Post by Dylan16807 »

julianmarq wrote: post #495
tptacek wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, and me I thought most of them were just a way to assure newcomers that your project wasn't going to allow racist trolling on the mailing list. My take is that the problem with this code of conduct was that it was dumb. I want to recommend to you the degree to which it is easy and relaxing to just acknowledge that and move on, maybe with a note or two about what not to do in any code of conduct you write. It seems…

> [CoC are] a way to assure newcomers that your project wasn't going to allow racist trolling on the mailing list. The implication being that every project without an established code of conduct is awash with racism? Exhausting vigilance about conspiracies indeed .

Did you skip over the word 'assure'? The implication is that other projects aren't performing that particular assurance.

Problems such as a plague of racist jokes aren't omnipresent, but they show up often enough in the world that a little signpost at the front door about expectations can help with first impressions and understanding the community.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#517

Post by garmaine »

tomnipotent wrote: post #481
freeone3000 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what grounds?

There are legal expectations for how companies can terminate employees, I think it's only fair that professional organizations organizing professional events also be held legally accountable for the impacts they have on individuals. More often than not, these responsibilities emerge after onerous legal discourse, legal judgement, and promise of punishment.

You think it's only fair. That's not exactly an argument about legal grounds.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#518

Post by rleigh »

lukev wrote: post #16
hprotagonist wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hand a committee opaque power with little oversight and no strict rules governing their own conduct. Populate it with probably well intentioned people who more than anything want to do something, anything about things in the world that are actually bad. You will, in general, find out how easy it is to find monsters under the bed and witches in the town next over, and you will do so very quickly. It is an extremely fa…

Ok, but seriously, what's the alternative? Should literally _everything_ be an fully transparent democratic process (and good luck keeping it fair when bad actors show up en masse)? Having a CoC is at least an improvement on the previous status quo, which was some group of individuals making arbitrary decisions in secret without any justification for their actions _at all_. CoC's don't give anyone more power than the…

Not "democratic", but "fair and accountable".

You are effectively reinventing a legal system with the CoC rules and its enforcement. But it's a "kangaroo court". In the real world, we realised that power needs checks and balances. Justice must be seen to have been served in a fair and proportionate manner. That's why we have public hearings, jury trials, the defendant has the right to put forward their side of the story with legal representation, evidence is submitted by both sides, we have cross-examination, sentences are passed with reference to established precedent, and there is also the right to appeal a judgement.

If organisations take it upon themselves to invent a faux legal system under which to operate, they can not omit the checks and balances without creating a system ripe for abuse and miscarriage of justice. The problem with CoC "enforcement" is that it is done behind closed doors with no oversight or accountability. The "defendant" has no right to properly hear the charges, or to present their case, or to appeal against it. It is manifestly unfair.

As for "not giving anyone more power than they already had", this is also untrue. Committees and individuals have been explicitly bestowed with the power to enforce CoCs by pronouncing judgements and inflicting their will upon the members of their organisations. They have great power, but not the corresponding requirement for accountability to their members.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#519

Post by sebow »

play stupid games, win stupid prizes;

Frankly any project that has a CoC smells of trouble and doesn't deserve my attention, because you've already partly shifted a main objective from code & software.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#520

Post by garmaine »

spacekitcat wrote: post #509
btilly wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. Why don't you come to to the dark side and oppose codes of conduct then? I consider the purported goals of codes of conduct to be laudable. But this kind of thing becomes inevitable when SJWs aka political correctness police get power through trying to enforce codes of conduct. It isn't that sometimes proponents of…

Can you provide a concrete example of this “political correctness” you are opposed to?

The OP did.
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