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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#481

Post by tomnipotent »

freeone3000 wrote: post #262
giardini wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what lawsuits are for. A few good lawsuit victories would put an end to this.

On what grounds?

There are legal expectations for how companies can terminate employees, I think it's only fair that professional organizations organizing professional events also be held legally accountable for the impacts they have on individuals.

More often than not, these responsibilities emerge after onerous legal discourse, legal judgement, and promise of punishment.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#482

Post by ratonroy »

After reading the entire post, I feel really bad for him, and I hope he gets the time off and the support necessary to recover from this incident. I also feel quite angry with how he has been treated. So please let me vent it out here as politely as I’m able to. I can imagine something like this or worse happening on social media groups, but an ostentatious “committee” that listens only to one side and never gives the other side the chance to get details on how things were perceived or why it’s a violation? And the chuckling in the call when someone has already said they’re not in a proper emotional state is just bullying.

I personally don’t think CoC or any other set of laws can be written to be precise and comprehensive. There will always be edge cases that need many hearings and re-hearings, with some discretion based on past precedence, nuances, etc., in the interpretation of written words in the code in an effort to make the code clearer for the future (this is how we improve laws, don’t we?).

This committee has, IMNSHO, been the opposite of kind and doesn’t deserve to hold the responsibility of handling CoC enforcement or violations. I’m sure this committee is not even capable of explaining clearly to a potential speaker what the CoC really means as per the written words and what’s expected.

This CoC needs to be torn apart and rebuilt, and the people in this particular committee must be sent to other areas where their expertise can be best used. Their proper place is certainly not in a CoC committee, for sure.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#483

Post by tester34 »

doubleunplussed wrote: post #357
ALittleLight wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

He may not support them, but in the current culture you have to pretend to otherwise people might think you're a sexist or a racist. I don't support them, but I pretend to.

It's pretty sad.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#484

Post by zimpenfish »

taneq wrote: post #193
bawolff wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't like criticism. I was bullied a lot as a kid. I don't like the idea of conflating "bullying" and "criticism". They're very different things. Even harsh criticism isn't really the same thing as bullying in my mind (Although it can be a part of bullying).

Agreed. Criticism (of the kind we're discussing here) is attacking ideas . Bullying is attacking people . The former is an essential part of any healthy intellectual environment. The latter is not.

But criticism can be used as a tool for bullying and it can be tricky to identify the difference between "robust good faith criticism" and "bullying bad faith criticism".

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#485

Post by luord »

It's interesting that he is so vehemently in favor of "cancel culture" given two things:

The reason many people oppose it is because it often leads to completely innocent people being harassed and/or ostracized (or worse). So, in that way, his situation makes a very fitting example of many of the things wrong with cancel culture and highlights a few of the reasons why detractors oppose this kind of attack.

Secondly, it's unfortunate that, despite buying into cancel culture and believing it is merely "facing consequences", he doesn't mention any names. If I were in favor of this kind of social retribution, I definitely would think that the members of this committee should "face consequences". At the very least, they should be removed from the committee, as clearly these people shouldn't have the authority to enforce any CoC, let alone a particularly nebulous one.

All in all, though, I feel very bad for him and, if nothing else, hopefully this doesn't bring him any more trouble.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#486

Post by tester34 »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #427

When and why did software engineering become the playground of aggressive, oppressive SJW and emotionally brittle snowflakes? Are other fields (of engineering) also as infested with all this nonsense? Here we have people throwing a fit over... nothing and then we have a speaker that calls himself „shattered“ after those ridiculous accusations? We need more Linus Torvalds. To make one thing clear: The speaker is the v…

>When

I think around 2016 in USA(?)

Why? I'd also want to know.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#487

Post by lloydatkinson »

All "Code of Conducts" are toxic rules designed to provide SJWs (social justice warriors) with the means to "cancel" people for wrong think and/or allow them to bully people.

How truly awful for this individual that this has happened, all they said was that someone's opinion is wrong and that makes them "unkind"? Absurdity.

As another comment says, it's all about virtue signalling and having "power" over other people.

Basic common decency doesn't need a dumb CoC writing to achieve.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#488

Post by thu2111 »

tptacek wrote: post #381
defen wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think we should generalize more, beyond codes of conduct: If you are building an adjudication process for resolving non-criminal personal conflicts (whether that be a Code of Conduct, an HR department, a Title IX proceeding, a professional organization, or something else), you should take a look at Anglo-derived common law and the safeguards against abuse that have been evolved over the centuries. That…

Your premise is that, rather than free association, every group of people owes a kind of due process to everyone else, presumptive of their right to associate. Sorry, I disagree: people can decide they don't want to associate with you or me for reasons we don't find justifiable. I can throw a party and not invite you simply for writing this comment; I can start a project and not allow you to contribute. You can relat…

Your party wouldn't have a formal written document that claims to set out specific rules, wouldn't be inviting arbitrary members of the public on the basis of a shared interest, would make no claim to be anything other than an arbitrary group of people picked by you on the basis of whatever, and generally differs from this situation in a lot of ways.

Nonetheless, if you invited a bunch of people to your party, then you and three others inexplicably ganged up on one of them, told them they were a bad person for claiming someone else was wrong, bullied them, made them cry and then banned them from future parties, then that sort of behaviour probably would get around and you'd soon develop a reputation for being an asshole.

Before today's post I had no views on JupyterCon, after today's post my view is that it seems to be run by assholes; that will certainly impact my future decisions around Jupyter and its community if I end up in a position to need to make them. That outcome could have been avoided by the advice to follow best practices from the legal system. This unfortunate blog post could have been avoided, and JupyterCon would have its reputation intact.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#489

Post by tomnipotent »

tptacek wrote: post #381
defen wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think we should generalize more, beyond codes of conduct: If you are building an adjudication process for resolving non-criminal personal conflicts (whether that be a Code of Conduct, an HR department, a Title IX proceeding, a professional organization, or something else), you should take a look at Anglo-derived common law and the safeguards against abuse that have been evolved over the centuries. That…

Your premise is that, rather than free association, every group of people owes a kind of due process to everyone else, presumptive of their right to associate. Sorry, I disagree: people can decide they don't want to associate with you or me for reasons we don't find justifiable. I can throw a party and not invite you simply for writing this comment; I can start a project and not allow you to contribute. You can relat…

> people can decide they don't want to associate with you or me for reasons we don't find justifiable

Unless your decision involves a protected group, in which case this is a little more nuanced.

> I can throw a party

Professional organizations putting together conferences do not get the same liberties as individuals organizing family events.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#490

Post by mathgenius »

This is exactly the kind of bs that happens when someone gives away their hard work for free.

I don't know what the solution is, but when you do stuff for free, try to make sure there is a mutual giving of some sort, otherwise disasters like this have a way of creeping up on you.

It's almost as if the scales of Themis need to be rebalanced somehow, with good or with bad, she doesn't care.

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