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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

211–220 of 971 posts

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#211
post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

Some relevant statements from the author on this topic:

> Code of Conducts can be a useful tool, when thoughtfully created and thoughtfully enforced, to address sexism, racism, and harassment, all of which have been problems at tech conferences. Given the diversity issues in the tech industry, it is important that we continue the work of making conferences more inclusive, particularly to those from marginalized backgrounds

> In particular, I was concerned that if only partial information became available, the anti-CoC crowd might jump on this as an example of problems with codes of conduct more generally, or might point at this as part of “cancel culture” (a concept I vehemently disagree with, since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”)

You wouldn't advocate scrapping the entire criminal justice system, just because one innocent person was convicted. A little more nuance is useful here as well.

Every community has its set of guidelines, either explicit of implicit, intended to foster the community's purpose. If I go to my neighbor's party and behave like a jerk, and insult the other guests, there's a very good chance that I won't be invited back. If I start posting "dank memes" continuously on HN, I'm eventually going to find myself banned. As the author himself said, what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences”.

In this case, I have no idea why the committee came down hard on the author. I saw the relevant portions of his talk, and didn't hear anything rude or objectionable. I think the committee got it wrong in this instance, but that doesn't mean everyone in future should be allowed to be a jerk, and not face any consequences.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#212
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in new projects from now on I'll start running echo "Don't be a dickhead, or I'll block you from the repo until you stop." > CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md Not needlessly aggressive, gets the point across, short, covers everything someone could do wrong, provides consequences and a pathway to reconciliation.

It doesn't communicate what you consider to be dickhead behavior, so it invites fear, uncertainty and doubt both in whether my behavior is okay, and in what behavior of other participants I can expect to be "protected" from.

Even the "CoC experts" in the post say that trying to codify acceptable behavior is the wrong way to do it. You just end up with overly broad rules like "be nice" because there is no way to write a CoC that covers what is acceptable behavior of every person in attendance.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#213

It really seems this is overwhelmingly about communication, not about CoCs or the norms specified in a given CoC. It's not even "I violated the Code of Conduct, so I got banned from the conference", we didn't even get that far because just communicating the "I violated the Code of Conduct" part was already a debacle. The post isn't about being cancelled, it's about an awful experience that caused the OP to burn out o…

Not even in the worst straw-person SJW interpretation of CoCs would this be the intended outcome.

Why do you say that? I absolutely think this is intended by some of the people involved.

Any political movement that is trying to gain power by creating taboos needs high profile examples to scare people into following their agenda. Incidents like these therefore become something to brag about.

It is a basic power play. No different than having a new leader in an organization singling out someone trusted by the previous leadership to target. Which forces the rest of the organization to choose sides, and thereby cements the power of the new leader.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#214

I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. I expected this post to be a rant against codes of conduct and instead it wound up leaving me wondering if NumFOCUS and JupyterCon was in the wrong here...this guy offered criticism and that is NOT a fucking violation of ANY CoC -- if you can't handle criticism, don't make public statements. The hilarious is that J…

>> I support the thoughtful enforcement of Code of Conducts to address blah blah blah, but ...

>I support codes of conduct but ...

CoCs are crap and you both know it

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#215
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. Here's a taste: in 1970, the national guard murdered four unarmed students at Kent State. A poll showed 58% of Americans blamed the students, who were widely smeared. Maybe the real rot of social media is how it erases in peoples' minds the idea that anything could have happ…

At some point all of it calmed down, the war ended and people moved on. With social media, there are no signs of stopping, it’s an endless stream of addictive outrage and one sided opinion. That in my view is what’s new and worse about it and it’s only likely to get more integrated with us. Imagine when you have a brain implant like Elon and Co are working on ? You won’t even have the luxury to put your phone in your…

> the war ended and people moved on

The Vietnam-era "culture war" did not, however. It continued for quite some time. Just like the Civil Rights era and McCarthyism beore it, both of which came with their share of lynch mobs, and sometimes literal rather than metaphorical ones.

>That in my view is what’s new and worse about it and it’s only likely to get more integrated with us.

Absolutely we should work to reduce this kind of behavior, but it is in no way something "new". Dragging people on Twitter is a significant improvement from dragging them in front of Congress on national TV, which is an improvement from dragging them... behind cars.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#216
I organize a local tech meetup. A lot of our organizing and out-of-band socializing happens through a separate, very large, local tech community Slack group. A few years ago, CoCs were all the rage and there was a push for all communities to adopt one. As a consequence, I've done a lot of my own thinking on CoCs [0].

As an event or community organizer, a lot will depend on how you think of your CoC. You can either think of it as a list of rules by which you will adjudicate conflicts, or you can think of it as a communication tool.

I see the former thought process in our Slack group's CoC, and in most of the CoCs that get mentioned in articles like this. It suggests a moral absolutist approach, that all conduct in all situations can be correctly binned into "good" vs "bad". Not even logic is complete, so I don't see how codes of ethics and morals can be complete.

Such thinking also denies the concept of mens rea, whether or not the person intended to do harm. I haven't watch the talk to know how the criticism was worded, but we have had other scenarios described where the mere usage of certain words can lead to adjudication of "CoC violation", because the word had a different denotation to the listener than the speaker. In such cases, there is clearly a lack of ill intent. Where the line should fall is how the "speaker" reacts to the correction, not on the gaff itself.

Being authored by a singular entity, any CoC is always going to fail to match everyone's cultural norms. What we're talking about here is attempting to codify how we behave in social groups, how we show respect to other people, and hopefully how we avoid conflict, rather than just accepting that conflict is inevitable and must be smote with great prejudice. Those are all issues of manners, which are infinitely evolved and evolving and flexible and untestable and often unspoken rules.

Maybe it's because I'm older and grew up on a much more diverse Internet, before Facebook and Twitter and Google bubbles took over, when online interaction took place on topic-oriented message boards and chatrooms, leading to frequent and sustained interactions with people from multiple nationalities and walks of life. Maybe it's my recent work in the foreign language instruction industry, where social faux pas is the inevitable result of students stretching their wings and flying too close to the sun. Maybe it's my upbringing in which my parents emphasized honor and always doing the right thing. When dealing with social conflict, there absolutely must be consideration for the intent of the action, a willingness to use it as a teaching moment, and not one of punishment.

These are the problems I have with "enumerated behavior" CoCs as myself, an actor in good faith. But I can technically get over it. Far more troubling is that bad-faith actors use these lists to stand just over the line on the safe side and use it against good-faith actors. An overheard, off-color joke, told in bad taste, is a literal violation of the CoC, but it lacked ill intent to the person who was offended by the joke. Tell the person, "hey, people can hear you, this is not cool". 9 times out of 10, the person says, "oh, I'm so sorry" and is on their best behavior the rest of the time. That other 1 time, they double down, creating a pattern of behavior and a clear demonstration of ill-intent. But using the CoC to then blacklist people, and then amplifying the furor through social media in attempt to get the person fired from their job, is engaging in a form of harassment, but one that is protected under the guise of "protecting victims". It comes from a "zero-tolerance" mentality, one that is itself a social harm.

Where I took the CoC for my tech meetup was to use it as a communication tool. I talked with a lot of people about why they wanted a CoC and the message was singular, "to know that I will be safe". I wrote a CoC that focused on communicating the commitment of the organizers to proactively guiding behavior patterns towards ones of good manners, to reassure attendees that they can communicate with us about their concerns in any way that is comfortable for them, and that we will immediately prioritize said issues.

I tell people, "you don't know who heard you, you don't know how they heard it, and you don't know what they took from it." Most people don't make complaints. The "enumerated behavior" CoC is a reactionary document, one that assumes that no smoke equals no fire. It's not enough to have a good fire department. You also need to build your structures to fire code and not store oily rags in a pile in the corner of your garage.

Our CoC has no enumeration of bad behavior. It mostly just says that attendees are expected to be polite to each other, with the addendum that politeness will not be defined. In this way, it puts the issue of behavior and intent at the forefront. A polite person apologizes if they accidentally offend someone. A polite person informs someone they have been offended without making it into a crusade, in the hopes that they will be apologized to. And the boundaries of politeness is free to flex with the boundaries of the group.

I also semi-regularly remind people that the authority they assume I have is only because they give it to me. The group exists soley for the benefit of the people within the group. If there is some way in which the group is not meeting the needs of the people within it, there is no point in talking about "the integrity of the group", as "the group" is not an entity unto itself, with some notion of rights or feelings that need to be protected. It's just the people.

I feel it is because of this that we've only had to ban 2 people in the last 6 years. While those moments were certainly tense, we came away from them with no disagreement that they were handled correctly. I still stand by those decisions. There's almost always some moment to make a comment about, "hey, that thing you just said could be taken in this other way", and it usually ends with the person whole-heartedly apologizing. Our group is diverse and lively. It feels like a real community. Folks are able to disagree with each other without fear.

As for the Slack group, I just keep to the technical channels and don't engage in anything that comes even close to conflict. My speech has been chilled, so to speak.

[0] Incidentally, one of my thoughts was "how did the group of people who came up with these not think of how the acronymn sounds?" I also am not too keen on the usage of the term "conduct", as it evokes images in my mind the Military Code of Justice and "Conduct Unbecoming", which in turn evokes images of command authority structures, which I dislike greatly. But whatever you want to call it, I'm going to continue to use the apparently accepted term of art.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#217
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. Aren't you just buying into the clickbait/hype here and adding to it? How many people is it really? How many people take this as seriously as media stories make it sound? I think you're assuming a very loud vocal minority represents the opinions of everyone. The problem to me is a single digit number of people can have an opinion that they find something is offe…

> According to the 1% rule, about 1% of Internet users are responsible for creating content [...] I wonder how true this is now? Even if we don't count social media as "content" (and some of it certainly is) most web content is participatory in some way and I'd wager a decent percentage of web users (if not internet users) are now contributing.

I'm guessing this is the same with everyone else, but if you check Twitter and Facebook, most of the people I follow never post anything and a tiny minority post all the time.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Each conference has their own goals, but I'd think that a general thread that underlies all of them is the exchange of ideas. If you can't criticize ideas ("Joe Schmoe is wrong about X"), then I'd say you're not doing a great job of exchanging ideas. I think preventing attendees from criticizing people ("Joe Schmoe is dumb") is perfectly fine, but that's clearly not what happened here.

Leaving aside whether this'd be a good policy for a conference, this argument doesn't really check out for me. You can exchange ideas without making judgements on other ideas. Like, let your ideas speak for themselves, marketplace of ideas etc, or even make comparisons without saying your ideas are _better or worse_ than other ideas. I'm sure you wouldn't run out of useful and engaging conference content even with so…

Some ideas have demonstratively poorer outcomes, or more succinctly: "bad". Some ideas are demonstratively at odds with the observed behavior of the world: "wrong". If you can't say "person X is wrong about idea Y" what kind of discussion can you have? How would you advise Galileo to present his paper on an experiment that demonstrated that the leading academic voice (Aristotle) was wrong?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#219
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support codes of conduct but this is EXACTLY the thing that opponents point to when they oppose them. Why don't you come to to the dark side and oppose codes of conduct then? I consider the purported goals of codes of conduct to be laudable. But this kind of thing becomes inevitable when SJWs aka political correctness police get power through trying to enforce codes of conduct. It isn't that sometimes proponents of…

It, seemingly, isn't inevitable - I can count on one, _maybe_ two hands the number of unfair incidents I've heard since I started hearing people trumpeting the dark side view that 100% absolutely all power is put into service of evil, always.

Most people who are targeted aren't going to go telling the internet about it.

And people who curb their behavior unreasonably out of fear aren't going to advertise that either.

What you hear about is only the tip of the iceberg of what really happens.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#220
post #7

This is one of those posts where the title is going to trigger a lot of unproductive subthreads, but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful (and links to Valerie Aurora's excellent code-of-conduct training deck). The thing HN likes to do best with any story is to generalize it and find sweeping conclusions. Here, I think the story is pretty much just: people screw up, and if your project has a code of…

> but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful

The piece is not balanced of thoughtful. The piece is crafted to present the case in a way that's immune or resilient to typical and expectable attacks. It underlined the core failings of the concept behind a CoC, and it provides a concrete example of how people use CoCs as an oppression tool that's leveraged to manipulate and condition groups to follow the leader's bidding.

> Here, I think the story is pretty much just: people screw up

It really isn't. This isn't a mere "whoopsie". This is a CoC working exactly as it's supposed to work. By design. This is exactly what they were created to achieve. A community member said something, some people didn't approved based on their personal tastes, and thus they proceeded to leverage their CoC to persecute and punish that individual to keep the community in line.

There is absolutely no other use for a CoC. This is precisely what they were created for. This is no accident or mistake.

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