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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

151–160 of 971 posts

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#151
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage anyone who believes social media has divided our society like never before to read a small amount of history of the Vietnam war era. Here's a taste: in 1970, the national guard murdered four unarmed students at Kent State. A poll showed 58% of Americans blamed the students, who were widely smeared. Maybe the real rot of social media is how it erases in peoples' minds the idea that anything could have happ…

I would also encourage reading about the press before the 20th century. Every random pamphleteer or newspaper churned up all kinds of despicable rumors or partisan rhetoric as bad or worse than Twitter. The idea of “objective press” is pretty new...

The difference many less people had those newspapers or pamphleteers in their face all day long. The odds of people running into those stories in their personal lives were pretty small.

The analogy is like people complaining about A-Bombs and someone replying "300yrs ago people killed each other with swords. The world hasn't changed. People always killed other people".

In both cases the scale has changed by many orders of magnitude

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#152
post #79
post #49

I stopped reading when he said he's fine with cancel culture: since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences” . No, cancel culture is bullying. Edit: I feel that the author was bullied, or mistreated, so I was primed to be upset when seeing his own dismissal of cancel culture.

It has always been the case that certain behaviors incur social opprobrium. I assume that you don't literally think that shaming or punishing someone for their actions is categorically wrong, regardless of the situation. I've seen Harvey Weinstein's conviction for multiple assaults referred to as "cancelling". Are you suggesting that we should totally refrain from judgment? The real debate is over (a) what kind of co…

You are of course right about (a) and (b) being the real issues for people actually engaging on a good-faith basis. That said:

1) There are some incredibly wide-ranging disagreements on (a) at this point, with few people being willing to acknowledge gray areas. Witness incidents like https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-hounding-of-a-scotti... (and please ignore the somewhat-inflammatory title and do read the story). I think there are quite a few people who think it's not even debatable whether Jenny Lindsay's conduct warrants the treatment she received, though they don't actually agree with each other on whether it does.

2) There is a disturbing prevalence of double-standards for purposes of applying (a).

3) In practice the answer for (b) is often irrelevant, because the behavior at issue is something someone "said", typically in electronic form, and there are saved copies everywhere anyway.

4) Most of the engagement on the issue is not in good faith to start with.

I do think that there are multiple things people mean when they say "canceling", which is why I think various recent attempts to actually define what differentiates "canceling" from "criticism" or "social opprobrium" are useful.

If you haven't seen https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/opinion/cancel-culture-.h... it's a pretty decent good-faith attempt to wrestle with the issues that at least tried to draw a distinction between "criticism" and "canceling", in its point 1. In that sense, Weinstein _was_ in fact "cancelled", and per item 2 appropriately...

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#153
post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

Frankly. Most people on HN and the tech community have asked for this, it's been years in the making. Slowly, anyone watching has seen this coming and it's not the end.

There's a reason we (the tech community) used to be and generally do lean libertarian. It's because we had to think ahead as we program, develop, we used to be innovators. We had to accepted people like Richard Stallman or Steve Jobs for that matter, because despite their faults, they contributed and drove things to a new level.

There may have been more of a "frat" style attitude, maybe. But from my experience the "old guard" was more nerds who didn't know how to communicate well. Often this was off putting, there were inappropriate jokes, etc. That definitely needed to be redressed.

HOWEVER, the solution has been not been merely education and punishing those who are abusive, but a propaganda and indoctrination campaign. I've witnessed men being forced to apologize to an audience of their peers, literally saying "I am sorry for being a white male of privilege." I've seen this at University and now it's coming to corporations.

I've been in meeting and trainings where I've been ordered to only target minorities during hiring. When asked, "why are we not recruiting from the ACM or IEEE clubs?" I was told, diversity is a more important target, everyone graduating will have roughly the same skill level anyway. These are the now corporate entities running NumFOCUS.

The reality is now everyone wants a "safe space". Which is not a "safe space" for discussion, but a "safe space" from feeling uncomfortable.

Today, we're more concerned about the petty politics than building a future. For looking the most "diverse" or "inclusive". The sacrifice has been a robust society or organization. We can't have differing opinions without being excommunicated.

I'm done being silent.

I want to build a future I'm proud of and this isn't it.

I wrote about it in my blog post titled "On Committing Suicide"[1], titled as such because saying any of this can get me fired. It can get me banned on social media. It's eventually going to kill the United States. In the words of John Adams,

> Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation. Individuals have conquered themselves. Nations and large bodies of men, never. - John Adams, 2nd President of the United States

[1] https://austingwalters.com/on-committing-suicide/

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#154
post #145
post #49

I stopped reading when he said he's fine with cancel culture: since what is referred to as “cancellation” is often just “facing consequences” . No, cancel culture is bullying. Edit: I feel that the author was bullied, or mistreated, so I was primed to be upset when seeing his own dismissal of cancel culture.

As far as I can tell "cancel culture" means yelling at someone who did something bad. It can be real dumb sometimes though.

I would say "cancel culture" means going to the employer of someone you don't like and getting them fired, and ideally blacklisted from working in their field again. If it were just yelling, it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue.

But I think definitions of "cancel culture" differ widely... ;)

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#156

To author: Jeremy Howard Please watch Linus talks. If that's not enough for you to grow some thick skin, go watch Bill Burr and ultimately Donald Trump. Stop living your life in fear what others think of you. My wife is blaming me because, finally, after more then a decade and a half she started to care less of what neighbors and/or extended family members think of her. For me personally I care only what 3 people thi…

[deleted]

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#157
post #31
post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

> I don't like criticism. I was bullied a lot as a kid. I don't like the idea of conflating "bullying" and "criticism". They're very different things. Even harsh criticism isn't really the same thing as bullying in my mind (Although it can be a part of bullying).

We should fight to keep real bullying around. Turns out sticks and stones and broken bones are a major part of getting skin thick enough that you can accept people won't always like you and they have no obligation to.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#158
Uhh...why exactly does the author care so much about what is obviously a bunch of clowns roleplaying as a country? That just seems to ascribe to them a level of importance they've never had.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#159
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the 'target' is OK with a more-critical, even a hyperbolically- or teasingly- critical tone, why not allow it? Lots of big personalities carry on 'feuds' that are largely acts, to their mutual. The back-and-forth, even with campy insults, creates a framework for understanding the key points and evolution of the disagreement. Using more forceful, even facetiously disrespectful language expands the range of imagery/…

>If the 'target' is OK with a more-critical, even a hyperbolically- or teasingly- critical tone, why not allow it? if it's between two people who stand on the same level roughly as is in this case and it's all in good fun it's no issue. However in general this is a horrible idea, because someone with outsized influence can bully in ways that the victim will simply have to take if the imbalance is too large. Imagine E…

Sure, but your Musk hypothetical isn't like this case.

And, in cases of massive power/following imbalance like your hypothetical, it's unlikely any community CoC like this would even apply. The nasty person would just use any of their outlets that don't try to enforce a hyper-genteel environment.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#160
post #6

We're literally tearing ourselves apart, and I don't want to hold opinions about human beings anymore. Anyone can be an enemy or dislike you. Social media has rotted us from within and from all sides. Left, right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is so hostile and eager to end other people. This is madness. Yes, I did read the article. We're cancelling people over criticism . Somebody needs to hide Linus. I don't like cri…

I find I'm a lot happier when I try to extend everyone compassion. (Mostly) doesn't matter who, or what, or why, or even if my story for how to be compassionate towards them is feasible ("well maybe if their life was like X then..."). I, myself, feel better and happier when I don't lean into the hostility and desire to "end other people", and instead lean into compassion.

Give it a go!

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