PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab • Hacker News Board

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#101

Post by djsumdog » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:20 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #64

microcolonel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Proud Boys are not white supremacists. “Anti-racist” is brand of explicit racial discrimination dressed up as civil rights activism. And no, "we" would not "all be so much better off" for having licked Kendi's boot instead of upholding the sanctity of basic civil rights that enable the very activism (good or bad) that you're talking about.

> The Proud Boys are not white supremacists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys

Wikipedia might be good for small, factual articles. But for anything remotely controversial, it leans hard-left. Larry Sanger's blog post gets it head on:

https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/

The Prod Boys are too new, but whenever you look at an older controversial topic, ALWAYS read the Talk page first, and also, go back 10 years in the history and read that version of the article and the first version.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#102

Post by renewiltord » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #95

mmastrac wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true at all. Canada has both strong anti-hate-speech laws and a far lesser (though still existant) problem with racism and racial justice overall than the US. Freedom of speech always has limits.

Canada doesn't really have freedom of speech. Mike Ward faces a $80k fine for making a joke[0]. [0]: https://podtail.com/pt-BR/podcast/wrongspeak/-10-that-s-not-...

And neither does America. This man was arrested for calling his mayor corrupt: https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/internet-speech/new-ha...

To be honest, I know where most people stand on free speech when I see them saying that we shouldn't allow anyone to call for anyone else to be fired. I think freedom of speech is so important that I will defend to the death your right to ask for me to be fired.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#103

Post by rendall » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

From the article's title: "Home to Proud Boys domain, Gab, and other right-wing sites posts unhinged letters after PayPal cuts ties"

Unhinged is a very editorial stance, signaling how the author wants us to perceive the events of the story before even word 1

Does no one else feel resistant to this kind of nudging?

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#104

Post by kypro » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

some_furry wrote: post #69

umvi wrote: post #12

Seems like PayPal had already cut off funding for Proud Boys over a year ago? The did the same for Antifa though, so at least they are somewhat consistent. This particular article seems less about Proud Boys and more about Epik using an "alternative currency" called "Masterbucks"... > The right wing has long accused tech companies of anti-conservative bias. Experts say the claims are unfounded. It's an interesting si…

> [They] did the same for Antifa though, so at least they are somewhat consistent. I don't think this is a coherent statement. Antifa isn't an organization. The Proud Boys definitely is. If you're not familiar with the Proud Boys, this is a good introductory video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZMWQDvZQZs

> Antifa isn't an organization.

They have spokes people, a uniform, unified political beliefs, and meet through organised events.

I suspect the only reason they claim not to be an organisation is because they don't want to be label a terror organisation. Either way, how they choose to organise should be completely irrelevant here. If Antifa decided they were an organisation tomorrow and The Proud Boys put out a statement saying they're no longer an organisation should PayPal reverse their stance?

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#105

Post by ashtonkem » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

gedy wrote: post #28

jasonvorhe wrote: post #3

This is good news, but I suspect the "censorship cancel culture" crowd will be chiming in soon.

You say that now, but if the political winds change in future and progressive ideals and orgs are then labeled "hate speech", promoting violence, I suspect there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

PayPal isn’t cutting them off because of who they host, they’re cutting them off because they’re selling a cryptocurrency and couldn’t meet AML regulations.

It’s very frustrating how many people here are falling into the trap of fighting out this culture war issue when it doesn’t seem to be supported by the facts in the article.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#106

Post by breakfastduck » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

freeone3000 wrote: post #31

They chose to not participate with PayPal, and invent their own currency, and in exchange, PayPal stopped dealing with them. Their questions were fairly basic KYC form-letter questions anyone selling a financial service should be able to answer - if they couldn't, they might be in trouble with the SEC, not just PayPal.

Genuine question here - what's the difference between them selling this 'currency' and buying in game currency on a video game? Or would those kind of things also have to comply with these kind of regulations?

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#107

Post by mmastrac » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #85

mmastrac wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that's a very weak statement and easily refuted. By what measure? The US ranks below Canada on the HFI. On many quality of life lists, the US is far below nordic countries. You may want to examine your circumstances and see if you'd still feel the same way if you were one or more of black, female, gay, or a persecuted minority (I'm assuming you are none of these, but feel free to correct me).

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. Your very post here proves my point more than any further elaboration on my part ever could. A mere 30 years ago, everything you just said here would have gotten _you_ banned from most clubs, small businesses, shopping centers, and religious organizations. Today, you get rewarded with a bunch of social media points for making statements like yours.

I'm also Canadian, white, straight, male and can afford to piss off potential future and my current employers with my posts and just retire if I wanted to. But I don't let that illusion cloud the fact that there are many people who don't have my luck who find the world we live in incredibly unjust.

You need to tap your empathy and look at the life experiences of others in different circumstances. Would they consider society just?

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#108

Post by gridlockd » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

chaganated wrote: post #42

Gab is a non-entity, and McInness is a bad joke. PayPal has just given both of them 10,000x more credibility than they ever had. The Streisandining continues.

So you're saying that telling people to shut up will not actually change their minds and make the world a better place?

I don't like that. I'll give you a downvote, that will set things right!

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#109

Post by glasss » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:23 PM UTC

bioinformatics wrote: post #58

ceejayoz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, if you get a reputation for entering businesses and shitting on the floor, you'll find yourself banned from all of them eventually. The same is true for online businesses.

So, if you go to some business and shit on the floor, maybe we can ban you from the business, the roads that reach said business, ban you from public transportation, ban you for owning a car, bicycle, motorcycle and maybe ban you from owning property. That will show you!

Doesn't sound too far off from sending people to jail if they break the rules of their society. Difference being that holding certain beliefs isn't illegal, at least not yet in America, so society throws in what you might consider a "civil jail".

Also let's not pretend that these people's rights are getting unfairly stripped from them - they are not entitled to accessing any of these services. Further, it's not like they are banned from all these things, it's more like not letting them on stage during an open mic night - they can still browse all aspects of the internet.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#110

Post by 4bpp » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #43

4bpp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this analogy work? As I understand it, the reason a physical business would ban someone engaging in the behaviour you described is that it would create costly first-order work for the business (cleaning up) and result in a second-order loss of profits due to deterring other customers until the cleanup is complete. Does anything of the sort apply in the case of politically questionable entities using a near-m…

Providing services to groups like this can be a PR disaster far more revenue-impacting than having to mop a floor.

Can it, though? I think a key argument being made is that Paypal is essentially without alternative. People may have convulsions on social media and write angry messages to support hotlines, but hardly anybody is in a position to actually reduce their usage of it in order to make a point. This precludes the second-order effect; no first-order effect exists to begin with, because Paypal has no meaningfully limited physical resources that are occupied or rendered unusable by political poop.