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PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

mashable.com

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Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#81

Post by umvi »

some_furry wrote: post #69
umvi wrote: post #12

Seems like PayPal had already cut off funding for Proud Boys over a year ago? The did the same for Antifa though, so at least they are somewhat consistent. This particular article seems less about Proud Boys and more about Epik using an "alternative currency" called "Masterbucks"... > The right wing has long accused tech companies of anti-conservative bias. Experts say the claims are unfounded. It's an interesting si…

> [They] did the same for Antifa though, so at least they are somewhat consistent. I don't think this is a coherent statement. Antifa isn't an organization. The Proud Boys definitely is. If you're not familiar with the Proud Boys, this is a good introductory video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZMWQDvZQZs

> Antifa isn't an organization

Maybe not with centralized governance like Proud Boys, but PayPal definitely cut off payment processing for "Antifa Sacramento" and "Atlanta Antifascists" last year, I remember reading about it...

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#82

Post by typenil »

piva00 wrote: post #55
gedy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that now, but if the political winds change in future and progressive ideals and orgs are then labeled "hate speech", promoting violence, I suspect there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If liberal ideals of fairness, equality and so on become considered "hate speech" I believe that the society suffering through that will have much bigger problems to tackle than companies' censorship. Both sides are not the same.

Talking as if this didn’t already happen in the McCarthy era. What good company to be in. Same tactics, different ideals. Just as wrong. Just as convinced you’re right.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#83

Post by dashundchen »

mcintyre1994 wrote: post #13

From the article: > According to one letter, penned by Epik’s SVP of strategy and communications, Robert Davis, PayPal inquired about offshore accounts, money transmission licenses, and "other queries related to cross‐border activities and law enforcement." > “[The questions] were absolutely absurd, and well outside of any knowledge or experience we have as a domain registrar,” said Davis. These sound to me like thin…

Yes, I think many people commenting here have jumped to react to the headline with their own political views, not the article. Perhaps the title should reflect it's over money laundering, not content of Epik's clients.

Anyone who has read stories of or dealt with Paypal before knows they will cut off access if they even have an inkling of illegal activity happening. Their relationship with the banks and payment processors depends on it. So it's no surprise Epik advertising tax evasion using Paypal would get them terminated.

Epik doesn't really help their case with the response letter, it's written in a unhinged fashion without any substantiation of their claims of censorship by "Paypal executives".

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#84

Post by ravenstine »

kenforthewin wrote: post #35

If some of y'all put the time you spent into defending white supremacists and hate platforms in the name of free speech or independent thought instead into achieving a more just, anti-racist society we'd all be so much better off.

This is as ridiculous as people who say "Why don't we all just get along?"

Some are skeptical of megacorporations controlling the economics of information, the potential wrongs of moral control, without necessarily defending detestable people, in the same way those who defend freedom of speech aren't defending Mein Kampf.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#85

Post by AndrewUnmuted »

mmastrac wrote: post #63
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society is the most just society the Earth has ever known. What exactly do you expect the folks of HN to do differently?

Sorry, that's a very weak statement and easily refuted. By what measure? The US ranks below Canada on the HFI. On many quality of life lists, the US is far below nordic countries. You may want to examine your circumstances and see if you'd still feel the same way if you were one or more of black, female, gay, or a persecuted minority (I'm assuming you are none of these, but feel free to correct me).

It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. Your very post here proves my point more than any further elaboration on my part ever could.

A mere 30 years ago, everything you just said here would have gotten _you_ banned from most clubs, small businesses, shopping centers, and religious organizations. Today, you get rewarded with a bunch of social media points for making statements like yours.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#86

Post by behringer »

mmastrac wrote: post #63
AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society is the most just society the Earth has ever known. What exactly do you expect the folks of HN to do differently?

Sorry, that's a very weak statement and easily refuted. By what measure? The US ranks below Canada on the HFI. On many quality of life lists, the US is far below nordic countries. You may want to examine your circumstances and see if you'd still feel the same way if you were one or more of black, female, gay, or a persecuted minority (I'm assuming you are none of these, but feel free to correct me).

The US imprisons more people than China. The US enslaves its prison population. The US justice system tricks innocent people into pleading guilty using a clearly corrupt plea bargaining system. There is nothing just about American justice.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#87

Post by toomuchtodo »

mmastrac wrote: post #77
gruez wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So people should be able to send money abroad to terrorism outfits OP mentioned "if you're not breaking the law".

So free speech _does_ have limits?

Speech is not terrorism, nor physical violence. It is hyperbole to argue otherwise. Yes, many forms of speech are distasteful, or downright grotesque (hate speech, for example), but it is absolutely not the same as an act of terrorism.

[The idea that the government may restrict] speech expressing ideas that offend … strikes at the heart of the First Amendment. Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.” -- Justice Samuel Alito [1] [2]

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201...

[2] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1293_1o13.pdf (Matal v. Tam)

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#88

Post by criddell »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #44
MattGaiser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will they be significant economies though? Gab and Epik are mostly about culture wars and conspiracy theories. How many people are actively involved in those?

The history of explosive growth in tech platforms should make us very cautious about assuming small economies will stay small. It's been barely a decade since Facebook and Twitter were small platforms that didn't matter.

A decade ago Facebook and Twitter were small in a nascent industry.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#89

Post by djsumdog »

kenforthewin wrote: post #35

If some of y'all put the time you spent into defending white supremacists and hate platforms in the name of free speech or independent thought instead into achieving a more just, anti-racist society we'd all be so much better off.

> If some of y'all put the time you spent into defending white supremacists and hate platforms

And how do you define this? Have you ever once considered you could be wrong and they could be right?

The freedom of speech is the freedom to disagree. It's the freedom to talk about things we know are unorthodox and offensive, and not fear prosecution from our government (In the context of US/constitution speech).

At one time, saying homosexuality can be a normal and healthy behavior was considered hateful, evil and dangerous. People lost their publications, their friends and sometimes their lives for that idea.

At one time saying black people should be able to have all the same rights as white people; drink from the same fountains, have the same bus seats, and use the same bathrooms, was considered wrong, insane, and a dangerous idea.

The freedom to say things has never been easy. In some countries, we try to protect it. It was one thing when it was the printing press or books, but now we're talking about massive distribution platforms, with insane reach, and very very few companies who have risen to positions where they can be gatekeepers.

You can say it's fine when they go after someone you don't like, but what about when they cut funding for your Mastodon server or phpBB board because of a few posts you've put up they don't like?

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#90

Post by umvi »

ceejayoz wrote: post #62
bioinformatics wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you go to some business and shit on the floor, maybe we can ban you from the business, the roads that reach said business, ban you from public transportation, ban you for owning a car, bicycle, motorcycle and maybe ban you from owning property. That will show you!

It is disingenuous to conflate "banned from private companies" with "banned from public utilities". They're vastly different on a legal level.

There is a strong argument that a lot of currently private companies ought to be reclassified as public utilities. Like ISPs, for example.
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