The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? • Hacker News Board

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#161

Post by dralley » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:12 PM UTC

mrob wrote: post #66

znpy wrote: post #38

I am not necessarily against Wayland or new things in general. But it bothers me when no clear upgrade path is defined ("drop your stuff" is not acceptable) and a half-hassed incomplete solution is proposed instead, and backwards compatibility is pretty much disregarded. For what concerns my personal computing, I'll stay on Xorg until XFCE supports Wayland. Then I'll update.

I'm against Wayland because it forces compositing on all windowed applications. I'll stay on Xorg as long as possible because I'm not willing to sacrifice latency for no tearing.

Wrong: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/gnomes-mutter-gets-fu...

I get it, all these features that used to just be supported by the one Xorg server now need to be supported by individual compositors - but still, it is simply misinformation that "Wayland" is broken because Mutter / Kwin / Sway are incomplete.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#162

Post by cesarb » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

boudin wrote: post #21

est31 wrote: post #7

Today I've updated to the newest Kubuntu release 20.10 and considered switching to Wayland, but then abandoned the idea when I found out that middle click copy paste is only implemented in Plasma 5.20, and I only have Plasma 5.19. I've seen they've fixed the screenshot program though (which I remember to have been an issue on older versions). I'm looking forward to 21.04 for my next attempt to switch, maybe by then F…

Firefox native support is pretty much here already (I've been using it for quite a time now and it works really well). The only missing piece that is not merged yet is screen sharing unfortunately. It's available on Fedora's Firefox build. All GTK3 apps runs well on Wayland too. Qt apps runs well but it doesn't feel as polished (I mainly have issues when I use 2 screen with different scaling). The last big things are…

> The only missing piece that is not merged yet is screen sharing unfortunately. It's available on Fedora's Firefox build.

In my experience, it doesn't work yet; Firefox can select the IDE window (though you have to select it twice for some reason), and I can see the shared screen on my side (so the Wayland part seems to be working fine, since Firefox can get the window contents), but to my coworkers it appears frozen (they don't see any changes I make to that IDE window). I don't know if it's a bug in Firefox or a bug in Google Meet.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#163

Post by ddevault » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

verroq wrote: post #160

ddevault wrote: post #152

Oh, look, more non-experts spreading misinformation about Wayland on HN. Must be Sunday. https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-de...

I only really care about performance and Wayland hasn’t been very convincing [0] with no discernible improvement over X11. [0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GNOME-Xo...

GNOME is not a good representative of Wayland. Wayland is just a protocol - it's up to the compositors to have good performance to distinguish it from Xorg, and GNOME does not do well in this regard. Other compositors, particularly wlroots, enjoy excellent performance.

Wayland also opens the door to many performance improvements which are not possible on Xorg, and which take advantage of newer GPU features, especially on embedded systems but moreso every year on desktop and laptop GPUs as well.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#164

Post by ximm » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:13 PM UTC

nsajko wrote: post #132

If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…

Was the pun intended? https://github.com/emersion/grim

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#165

Post by grandinj » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

gtirloni wrote: post #148

darthrupert wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland was the last straw for me. It made me switch to Macs after 20 years of almost exclusive Linux on the desktop and a few dev stints. It was cool when my time was less expensive. I check the state of the linux world about once a year still. And obviously keep using it on the servers. Best of luck to everyone using it for desktop. I totally get why you do it, but it's just not for me right now.

Nobody is forcing you to use Wayland. Or are they? On Fedora it's a single line change em /etc to disable it (which I do because of Nvidia).

Except that, in the name of progress, various things are broken in the x11 world too on fedora, as a direct consequence of the wayland updates. Which is unfortunate

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#166

Post by verroq » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

ddevault wrote: post #163

verroq wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only really care about performance and Wayland hasn’t been very convincing [0] with no discernible improvement over X11. [0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GNOME-Xo...

GNOME is not a good representative of Wayland. Wayland is just a protocol - it's up to the compositors to have good performance to distinguish it from Xorg, and GNOME does not do well in this regard. Other compositors, particularly wlroots, enjoy excellent performance. Wayland also opens the door to many performance improvements which are not possible on Xorg, and which take advantage of newer GPU features, especiall…

Is there a benchmark where it blows X11 out of the water?

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#167

Post by vageli » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

solarkraft wrote: post #159

rjzzleep wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep trying to use Wayland, but it never fully works. Everyone keeps saying how well the highdpi stuff works, but then it really only works for a subset of things. For the rest it's actually worse than Xorg. Multiscreen is Xorg is kinda mushy so I thought maybe Wayland fixes it, but no it doesn't. Wayland is now 12 years old and everything is still half-baked. It quotes an intel developer saying they don't want to…

Wayland is a protocol. It has nothing to do with multi screen support. You're talking about the compositor you used. The one I use handles multi-screen setups quite well.

> Wayland is a protocol. It has nothing to do with multi screen support. You're talking about the compositor you used. The one I use handles multi-screen setups quite well.

Which compositor do you use?

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#168

Post by mrob » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

dralley wrote: post #161

mrob wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm against Wayland because it forces compositing on all windowed applications. I'll stay on Xorg as long as possible because I'm not willing to sacrifice latency for no tearing.

Wrong: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/gnomes-mutter-gets-fu... I get it, all these features that used to just be supported by the one Xorg server now need to be supported by individual compositors - but still, it is simply misinformation that "Wayland" is broken because Mutter / Kwin / Sway are incomplete.

I specifically said "windowed applications". This is talking about fullscreen applications.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#169

Post by Athas » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #147

kriive wrote: post #57

I have been using sway on Fedora for a year. It's been really good so. It's a smaller niche than X.org's, but I get to do everything I need. HiDPI support is just right, just throw output eDP1-1 scale 2 in the config and you're set. Clipboard works perfectly splendid, screen-sharing works (not as perfectly splendid as clipboard does), input works, chromium/electron is getting support for native wayland. Qt and GTK Wa…

> just throw output eDP1-1 scale 2 in the config and you're set Why? What? Why? The system exactly knows the DPI of all attached displays, why does it still need explicit configuration in 2020 to support HiDPI?!

How would it know what scaling factor you want?

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#170

Post by grandinj » Sun, Oct 25, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

nsajko wrote: post #132

If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…

And the Remote Desktop stuff needs to talk to each compositor to emplement copy and paste.