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I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

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Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#151

Post by lerptime »

DevKoala wrote: post #129
lerptime wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Chinas' reaction also not a response to terrorism? Also by war he likely doesn't mean "official" declaration of war by the vocal cords of the US president. He likely means a more physical form of war by means using soldiers, bullets and bombs to conduct mass slaughter. That kind of war.

Killing millions of people is not a proper response to and isolated terrorist act. Moreover you are trying to justify the suffering of people by using some hypothetical scenario that hasn’t occurred.

> Moreover you are trying to justify the suffering of people by using some hypothetical scenario that hasn’t occurred.

I don't think he's justifying anything. He's questioning the nature of this world where a clear black and white decision is not always possible. He is saying in this case could there be No justifiable action possible?

The hypothetical scenario is likely to help you empathize with the events from the chinese perspective. You cannot relate to the people reacting to terrorism in China. However, by envisioning a similar/equivalent scenario in your own country can possibly help you identify with the situation from their perspective. That is the purpose of the hypothetical.

The question still stands if the posed equivalent situation was happening in America, what is the appropriate response? I don't know how to answer his question, do you?

>Killing millions of people is not a proper response to and isolated terrorist act

Don't play with words here. Millions are missing in concentration camps getting reeducated, this isn't actual genocide. This is not equivalent to sending the military to another country and conducting actual killings. What China is doing is still atrocious but quite different then literal slaughter.

Also it's not a response to one isolated incident. Several terrorism acts with hundreds slaughtered and no end in sight is what is actually going on. I don't think you would call several 9/11's happening on american soil isolated terrorist attacks. Perhaps terrorism attacks in China seem isolated to you but this is not the case to a Chinese person.

Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#152

Post by ak39 »

fakedang wrote: post #90
ak39 wrote: post #59

Criticizing the Chinese government's actions for their treatment of the Uighurs will invite state-sponsored "cancel culture" - not just from China but also from the western democratic nations that acquiesce to Chinese whims. This is incredible - look at the life of the professional football player Ozil who was effectively forced to leave Arsenal for his comments on this very subject. Criticizing China should NOT be c…

A.) Ozil hasn't left Arsenal, he's just not played. His contract runs till next year. B.) Ozil is just a shit team player. Never attends practice, instead vacationing on Arsenal's dime. Even Arsene Wenger, one of the greatest coaches, had issues with him. C.) Ozil is also a huge fan of Erdogan, somebody who's currently sending troops to massacre Armenia, while also genociding Turkish Kurds. There is a 5 year old conf…

D) The country you didn't mention is the one I was talking about. You know which one. Very well.

Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#153

Post by Supermancho »

nendroid wrote: post #62
gentleman11 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism is the practice of terrorizing mass populations through use of force in the hopes of promoting an ideological agenda. What the Chinese state is doing right now, that sounds a lot like terrorism on an epically larger scale, doesn’t it?

Terrorism is more than that. Terrorism is the use of violence, harm and killings to promote an ideological agenda. You're 100% percent correct. What China is doing fits the definition of "terrorism." My question is: Is is using terrorism itself as a means to an end to end terrorism worth it? Keep in mind that the US reaction to 9/11 can in itself be defined as terrorism for what it did to the other countries. War is…

> How could you not go to war? The American sentiment was the same at the time

Respectfully, I disagree with the premise and the assertion. Everyone I know was confused about "going to war with Iraq" (again) which will always be at odds with responding to 9/11.

Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#154

Post by avmich »

vms20591 wrote: post #83
coldtea wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like Guantanamo, the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and close to a century of Kissinger and his ilk, is added to one's karma if they buy US products?

Exactly. The problem is, the West gets a moral high ground and even if they get criticism for their actions, the highest repercussions they encounter is "a slap to the wrist".

West gets moral high ground not because it's blameless - it isn't - but because it's faults are smaller. It could be counterproductive to judge something on a boolean scale - "perfect" vs. "not perfect so perfectly bad".

West is much more transparent than non-West, so we have better chance to differentiate good parts from bad parts. If we don't have such opportunity, and we consistently get burned with bad parts, we're forced to assume the whole non-Westness is bad. Here "West" and "non-West" is somewhat similar to "USA" and "China".

If China would be more transparent, if West would see differences, and interactions between those differences, and could judge the parts by those interactions, the scope of blame can be refined. Similarly with more transparent West we can see evolution of society or its parts towards more or less cruelty towards each other and judge and act accordingly.

Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#155

Post by avmich »

chris11 wrote: post #119
coldtea wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like Guantanamo, the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and close to a century of Kissinger and his ilk, is added to one's karma if they buy US products?

That should be a call to action to fight against America's abuses, not a reason to ignore other countries abuses.

And it' not a single call, it's a prolonged process. There is progressive movement in USA which claims to focus on those societal deficiencies. There is a lot of work to change things, but also a lot of promise to improve them.

Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#156

Post by free_rms »

BeetleB wrote: post #150
fishywang wrote: post #126

>Ӧmir was born to Uighur and Kazakh parents in Xinjiang, or formerly East Turkestan before the Chinese invasion of 1949 This is the first time I've seen the claim that "East Turkestan" (as in the "country") actually existed before 1949. I realize that it could totally be that the history I learnt growing up deliberately omitted that part, and/or the definition of "countries" were more in wonton before the end of WW2.…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_East_Turkestan_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_East_Turkestan_Republic Of course, it's Wikipedia, so you'll have to dig through its references.

So, 2 very small chunks of xinjiang broke away for a few years during WW2 while big parts of china were occupied by the japanese?

Not really tracking with the tone of TFA's claims imo.

Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#157

Post by Supermancho »

yeetman21 wrote: post #104
emteycz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just confirms the point. Shooting people wasn't economical.

It is more economical than building massive housing complexes and feeding entire populations for years on end

Bodies are manpower, the backbone of most human endeavors. It's not efficient to use men to kill other men, en mass.

Re: I am an Uighur who faced China’s concentration camps

#158

Post by bleepblorp »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #101
akiselev wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last time the human race stopped an industrial scale genocide, half the world had to unite under their own selfish reasons. That's no longer possible thanks to nuclear weapons, so our battle will have to be fought first with introspection and reflection. We can't do anything decisive to help the Uighurs without ripping apart Chinese sovereignty and causing even more collateral damage, so the best we can do is onc…

> We can't do anything decisive to help the Uighurs without ripping apart Chinese sovereignty Breaking up a regime capable of doing monstrous things has been done before q.v. europe 1945 .

Unlike Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, China has nuclear weapons and is completely enmeshed into the world economy.

Breaking up the Chinese government is not on the table.

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