Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#161

Post by pnutjam » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:14 PM UTC

throwmylifawy wrote: post #112

Consultant32452 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a really complex/perverse thing here which I'm going to fumble with, so I hope the dear reader forgives. This information is not available to the black community. Now, obviously, any black person is technically capable of tuning into the Fox News channel where Dave Ramsey has a show, or dial their radio to conservative radio stations where Dave Ramsey is broadcast. But in practical terms, Dave Ramsey is unava…

I appreciate you for being open, vulnerable and expressing your ideas. However I am black and what you are saying does not sound correct to me. I know a lot of black people (including my family) who listen to Dave Ramsey and watch Fox News. Black people are in general pretty religiously conservative in the US. Personally I used to watch financial TV channels growing up like CNBC and listen to Clark Howard and Susie O…

That's my big problem with Dave Ramsey. He's a rent-seekers financial advisor. There are lots of people who should cut their losses and let a bill get written off, but he brings his "ethical" view and counsels them to spend afew years feeding their kids garbage so the company can get paid.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#162

Post by anm89 » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

mellosouls wrote: post #82

rayhendricks wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need more VTSAX and less english majors. Start saving young and income doesn't really matter if your trying to FIRE. Also healthy eating habits and information about birth control should be taught in addition to financial literacy and at the expense of the current curriculum, but it is not because politics (both left and right here).

I'd agree with most of that; my point is there are many years of education - investing a significant amount of that in knowledge about the complexities of financial markets is utterly irrelevant to most people's lives; Maths and English are far more important at a deeper level over a life lived than bloody stocks and shares.

I know several people with university English degrees who receive government assistance. I would guarantee you that they disagree.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#163

Post by pnutjam » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #11

It is. When I was in high school over a decade ago, I did take a required financial literacy class. Required by the state. So yes, students do learn about savings accounts, CD accounts, IRA, Roth IRA. They learn about stocks, mortgages. Various other things (like tax returns by hand). I don't think equity/derivatives/futures/bonds were covered. Another class I took that was an elective (so not required, but available…

Yeah, my kids did too. They also know how much I make, how much taxes we pay, how much I spend at the grocery store, why we have to wait for certain things until payday, etc.

But I see alot of parents who don't want to discuss day to day finances or how much money they make. Kids need to see to learn.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#164

Post by tathougies » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

Studies show that formal financial education does not help people make better decisions. People tend to make the decisions their parents make. Classes teach people to regurgitate knowledge but rarely to apply it.

https://thedecisionlab.com/insights/education/improving-fina...

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#165

Post by AndrewDucker » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:16 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #148

Not that I'm defending it, but: The answer is for the same reason that practical skills in general aren't -- cooking, cleaning, how to purchase a car or home, how to review an apartment rental contract or put together a resume, how to raise children, how to mount shelves, how to do laundry. Education is designed pretty much solely as a feeder system for professional skills, starting with reading and numbers and perfo…

My nephew was taught to cook in school, which I'm very glad of. Giving people a starting point and some confidence is definitely a good idea.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#166

Post by rsynnott » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:22 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #126

mellosouls wrote: post #10

everyone should a fundamental understanding of how a savings account, CD account, IRA, Roth IRA, 401(k) and MSA account work. Likewise, everyone should have a fundamental understanding of the equity markets, derivatives markets, futures markets, bond and treasury markets along with an understanding of how interest rates work and their effects on financial instruments like mortgages. How much money do you think most p…

the median net worth of a US household is $121,411. you have to go down into the bottom quartile to find households with a net worth under $10k. most americans absolutely have enough money to make investments relevant. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-net-worth-percentiles/

I would assume that that ‘net worth’ is mostly caught up in housing, and very much not available for investment.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#167

Post by neffy » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

asciimov wrote: post #160

Two things to consider. 1. The purpose of school: To produce a basic worker who wont question authority and to keep a large segment of the population out of trouble for a majority of the working day (babysitting). School hasn't really changed much since the late industrial revolution with the exception that child labor laws mean more kids stay in and complete school. 2. A typical high school student completes 25 year…

Consider this is also a huge, multi-generational propagation of information problem in very long latency (slow) network structures.

A few members of one generation learns to read and write, they provide the teachers for the next generation, somewhat along the way arithmetic and finance start getting thrown in. How many teachers, especially at the higher levels, really understand their subject, and aren't just reciting it?

Then there are other issues. On the finance side, a notoriously high pressure, long hours career, where is the incentive to teach other people?

We should absolutely change the curriculum the way you suggest, and use basic life skills as the foundation for teaching things like math, biology etc. And better, typically private or privileged entry schools do just that. To do that across the board, well, first we have to teach the teachers. (On that front it would probably also help if the US coped Finland and paid them decently, but that would require some kind of across the board federal funding, and we all know how Americans feel about the T word.)

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#168

Post by rsynnott » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

Macha wrote: post #86

So in Ireland: In junior cycle (the first three years), we had a mandatory module "Business Studies". It had two purposes, the first was an introduction to the basics of the more specific modules available from your chosen modules in senior cycle (Accounting, Economics and Business). The second was to cover personal financial details, so it covered household budgeting, pensions (at a shallow level, e.g. defined benef…

Huh, that’s weird. Also went to school in Ireland; never heard of business studies being mandatory. It’s certainly not required by the curriculum.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#169

Post by recursive » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:26 PM UTC

silverpepsi wrote: post #62

OneGuy123 wrote: post #20

You can't just tell people how much taxes they are paying... Eg in Slovenia (small EU country with 2M people) many workers (even old ones) have no idea how much money the country takes from their wage. In school we covered stuff like "compound interest" but no-one ever thought us anything about taxes. We have a net, gross and a gross-gross wage (gross-gross being the actual amount the company pays for the worker). Mo…

I was deeply resentful of the school system in the USA by age 16. The only thing you ever heard, by word of mouth, was that taxes were paid yearly in April. I had the impression that if the stupid government is teaching me, they have an obligation/responsibility to see to it that I know something to basic as what I will have to do to avoid extreme penalization. After all, they went to the trouble of telling me to use…

This story resonates a bit with me. Some years ago, I did some freelance work. I made a good faith effort to do all the tax paperwork. In my naive zeal, I fucked up the forms, and somehow reported the same income twice. What they were asking me to pay was basically the profit I made on the project after expenses. I think I spent 80 hour assembling materials and corresponding with the IRS to try to explain what had happened. Every time it seemed like I was about to get through to a real human who could understand, I was starting all over.

I did go to a professional when I was about halfway through the saga. They did not really know what to do. They just wrote another one of the same kinds of letters that I had been writing. Maybe the extra tax jargon in it helped. I don't know.

Ultimately I only had to pay a small fraction of what they were asking, but it left me with a phobia of taxes. The rules appeared to be arbitrary and unknowable (to me) and yet I was still responsible for complying.

Re: Ask HN: Why isn’t finance a part of the core curriculum at schools?

#170

Post by Beached » Sat, Oct 24, 2020, 3:33 PM UTC

asciimov wrote: post #160

Two things to consider. 1. The purpose of school: To produce a basic worker who wont question authority and to keep a large segment of the population out of trouble for a majority of the working day (babysitting). School hasn't really changed much since the late industrial revolution with the exception that child labor laws mean more kids stay in and complete school. 2. A typical high school student completes 25 year…

not sure what high schools you are looking at, but most that I know of only require 2 or 3 years math, 2 or 3 years science, 2 or 3 social studies, 4 english, no foreign language required q art 1 or 2 pe, health AND finance (consumers economics).

do you have a source for the 4 years of math, science, ss and 2 years of foreign language required?

I was required to take CE which was supposed to teach financial literacy. although the course material was a joke and didn't apply to the real world.