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When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

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Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#351
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might work for outliers/higher IQ/elite people in the HN community, but consider this: 1. School is probably the best public invention to systematically distribute knowledge to the masses. Some like to point out "dropouts", "self-taught" geniuses or the "lucky few" as models instead of exceptions to the rule. 2. Not everyone is self-motivated to learn. Children, at critical developmental ages, are more prone to…

> School's purpose is not to teach obedience or even getting a job. It is there to teach us critical thinking, and consequently, how to be a good citizen. An educated population is also less prone to fall into totalitarianism. Germany was among the most highly educated countries in the world in the 1930s. The Russian Revolution was an elite phenomenon. In a country of peasants the Revolution was of and by the intelli…

Interesting you brought up the whole parallel societies thing. We have a few churches around us that have a bunch of people who do home schooling and "alternate" schooling, and this whole alternate society thing is really noticeable. The kids have friends and play and socialize, but it's an entirely different circle from the public school kids. The kids play video games but different ones, they watch TV and listen to music, but have a totally different concept of pop culture than the regular school kids. Like if I made a Spiderman or Harry Potter reference/joke they wouldn't get it at all, but they have their own memes that only they get. Feels kind of insular, like the Amish or one of those communities of immigrants who deliberately don't assimilate into the shared US cultural melting pot.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#352
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a lot of words to support your pedantry. What did your own personal anecdote add to your point? I suppose you prefer I use lots of words in place of the hyperbolic word "only" to satisfy your need for an equal level of granular evaluation of the unsuccessful education of kids in inner city locations. What you've described as successful teaching describes learning through about 3rd grade. So one would hope that…

Personal attacks will get you banned on HN, so please make your substantive points without that, or name-calling. And please don't post in the flamewar style to HN generally. We're trying for something different here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I do not feel I called him a name. I called out his pedantry, which I felt was an accurate use of the word given the wording he chose (specifically the "by hood or by crook").

He edited his post and added a lot of words that made it seem a lot less pedantic after the fact.

The original post I received was pretty bare bones originally and gave me a completely different impression than what is written now.

But I definitely overreacted to what was written, even originally.

--

"As bad as you make it sound, they are teaching kids stuff, even at less-than-wealthy school districts.

https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp

By hood or by crook, or by underfunded inner-city/rural public school, we're teaching a hell of a lot of kids to read and write.

I attended elementary through middle-school at a district too poor to offer a high-school chemistry class, and still learned my times tables and how to write a paragraph."

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#353
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this with my son who has an ADHD diagnosis. Pre-covid I constantly heard from school, that he was not paying attention, getting distracted. But since Covid, his output has been phenomenal - his reading/math has improved, he does really well one on one, we have a nanny working with him,. And I've never seen him happier. I know homeschool would benefit him immensely in the long run from an intellectual sta…

I was homeschooled k-10th grade, after which I entered community college. Certainly social contact and learning is something you want to encourage, but I would not let that hold you back from homeschooling your son if you feel it's working very well. It's complicated to do in the current situation, but playdates, sports, field trips with other homeschool kids, etc. go a long way. There are likely also co-op classes w…

Good to hear, we are definitely looking at this approach, given the success we've seen so far.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on Rothbard's description... The educationists who pushed for it were not a completely homogeneous group, although they were reasonably well organized. Some simply thought education was good and weren't bothered by the coercion. Some subscribed to the absolutist State view going back to Luther and Calvin—people saying things like "in these schools the precepts of morality and religion should be inculcated, and…

Maybe if I limited my concept of the 'point' of school to more specifically describe the average incentives driving the average parent in the current decade to send their child through the formal education system, rather than homeschooling? Would you then consider it possible to draw a link between that and a tractable concept of the 'point' of school.

I would probably refer to that as "the point of sending your kid to school". Note that this is different from "the point of running the school the way it's currently run" (which is how I would probably interpret the bare phrase "the point of school"), and also from "the point of maintaining compulsory education laws".

It may also be different from "why parents choose to send their kid to school", because parents' perception of their choices may be incorrect—I think it often is.

And, of course, it'll be different for different kids. You say "the average", but as some say, the average human has one ovary and one testicle; taking an average across disjoint groups may not make much sense. A high school diploma is one of the most cited reasons for going to high school (not K-8), but that would really only matter if the high school itself is a brand name, which is rare (you probably have to be rich, talented, or lucky to get in); otherwise a GED should work equally well for college. For the upper middle class trying to get into elite colleges, an upper middle class high school will offer plenty of extracurriculars with which students can pad their applications. For socially adept poor kids that manage to live in rich districts, mingling with the rich kids may be useful. For kids with terrible home environments, school may be a decent escape. For kids that fit well into the social environment and aren't bothered by all of school's problems, it may be fun, good for making friends, and even a decent educational option. I think most of the above groups don't overlap much (except the "socially adept poor kids" obviously "fit well into the social environment"), and forming a picture of school's "average target student" wouldn't look like a real student and would probably mislead more than enlighten.

For kids in reasonable home environments, who are irritated by school's problems, who have friends and sports or other group activities they do outside school, who have access to libraries and now the internet and Wikipedia and free online courses, which are getting better while school seems to get worse due to its cancer... it's probably not the best choice (the kid's individual traits like motivation and curiosity may be deciding factors here), and as trends proceed that will become more clearly and generally the case. Parents' impressions of the available options are probably decades out of date.

As for the incentives that face parents themselves: for many, public school is primarily publicly funded daycare; for some parents, there is no reason other than avoiding punishment from truancy laws. Honestly, I suspect the strongest motivators in practice are social conformity—not sending your kids to school would be shameful or weird, make you stick out and become a magnet for criticism—and ignorance of alternatives.

Most haven't heard of unschooling, and probably think homeschooling is for Christian fundamentalists who hate evolution, or for geniuses; those who know more still usually assume that it requires a parent to act like a full-time tutor, and haven't considered options like "set up books and textbooks and ask your child once a day what they learned and if they have any questions". Some have thought that far and think their child would never be productive without constant supervision; the homeschooling advocate's response is that your child has spent years being taught that "education" = "adults imposing boring unpleasant crap on you", and it may take many months for that to fade away, but their motivation should improve eventually; still, it seems possible to me that there's significant intrinsic individual variation in motivation and curiosity that would make the difference.

It is disappointing when adults assume the worst about their own children and knowingly condemn them to years of misery; they could be correct, but what a thing for a parent to believe... One can also ask: if you really believe that, then how do you expect them to do well in college or in a career? Maybe they assume the motivation will automatically improve as the frontal lobe finishes growing (which is possible), and that faking it until then will get them into a place where they might develop hitherto unseen qualities and do well. To which I merely sigh, shake my head, and say life should be so much better than that, and for many reasons it's worth the risk of trying it the right way.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's still mostly heritable" -- this statement is confusing to me. If we aren't sure what we're talking about in the first place, how are we sure "it" is heritable?

If you've heard 5-10 plausible meanings for "intelligence", and every one of them is heritable, then you can be pretty sure that "intelligence" is heritable even if you're not sure which particular meaning someone is using. And the article says: "on average, psychological traits are extremely heritable, at around 50 per cent." It's hard to argue for a definition of "intelligence" that wouldn't be a psychological trai…

> If you've heard 5-10 plausible meanings for "intelligence", and every one of them is heritable, then you can be pretty sure that "intelligence" is heritable even if you're not sure which particular meaning someone is using.

What if you’ve heard definitions for intelligence that aren’t measured by IQ test scores and then someone uses IQ test scores to argue for the heritability of intelligence?

> And the article says: "on average, psychological traits are extremely heritable, at around 50 per cent." It's hard to argue for a definition of "intelligence" that wouldn't be a psychological trait.

Its equally hard to argue for an average of things which are not faithfully represented by numbers.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be mostly exposed to those areas where the schools get mid-to-high ratings. Education is absolutely limited based on income level. At the lower income levels the only thing taught is boredom, authority, and pointless busywork.

As bad as you make it sound, they are teaching kids stuff, even at less-than-wealthy school districts. Adult Literacy in the United States: https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp It's not perfect, but from the most remote deserts of Arizona to rural Appalachia, to Compton, to rural Colorado, our public school system chugs away. By hood or by crook, or by underfunded inner-city/rural public school, we're teaching…

> I think it's a slap to the face of a lot of teachers doing their best, as well as their students, to say that kids in disadvantaged districts learn nothing other than how to sit still and listen to authority

I have to agree. In fact, I was explicitly told as much by my high school Physics teacher after I openly said that I thought the school's "Excellence Program" wasn't particularly challenging.

His take was that he realized that it was easy for me, but there were some teachers who were trying as hard as they could to give the students a good education while the rest dismissed us as being a bunch of unreachable ghetto kids that they were wasting their time on. Sure, I was a 17 year-old punk kid but he was right: I was basically crapping on the people who were trying to make a difference and at the same time putting down a lot of my classmates who were working as hard as they could to get good grades, many of them in very difficult life circumstances.

I guess I don't have a point other than to say I agree with yours :-)

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've heard 5-10 plausible meanings for "intelligence", and every one of them is heritable, then you can be pretty sure that "intelligence" is heritable even if you're not sure which particular meaning someone is using. And the article says: "on average, psychological traits are extremely heritable, at around 50 per cent." It's hard to argue for a definition of "intelligence" that wouldn't be a psychological trai…

> If you've heard 5-10 plausible meanings for "intelligence", and every one of them is heritable, then you can be pretty sure that "intelligence" is heritable even if you're not sure which particular meaning someone is using. What if you’ve heard definitions for intelligence that aren’t measured by IQ test scores and then someone uses IQ test scores to argue for the heritability of intelligence? > And the article say…

I'd be skeptical of a definition of intelligence that had no correlation with IQ scores. If you managed to put forth and defend such a definition, then that could turn into a valid objection; but that would then run into the "psychological trait heritability" prior.

> Its equally hard to argue for an average of things which are not faithfully represented by numbers.

How do you represent, say, extroversion with numbers? It's messy and any particular measure is probably not a good one, but what people do is come up with a list of questions like "Statement: I am excited when I go to a social event full of strangers; rate your agreement from 0 (Strongly Disagree) to 4 (Strongly Agree)", and add up the numbers to create a score. It's kind of arbitrary and has a lot of "noise" in it, but on the other hand there is enough signal that it is measuring something real. If you need to turn it into a binary classification, you choose a cutoff number, which will again be semi-arbitrary and make errors, but again can be good enough to draw useful conclusions. You can then apply that measure to, say, biological siblings who were both adopted, or (best) to identical twins separated at birth vs fraternal twins separated at birth, and see if genetic similarity correlates with similarity of your measure. From that kind of data, you can get a vague idea of heritability.

If the thing you're discussing isn't measured by existing tests, fine. If the thing you're discussing has a logical definition and is important, but you think there can be no tests to produce even a vague measure, then I would guess you just haven't tried very hard.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#358
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might work for outliers/higher IQ/elite people in the HN community, but consider this: 1. School is probably the best public invention to systematically distribute knowledge to the masses. Some like to point out "dropouts", "self-taught" geniuses or the "lucky few" as models instead of exceptions to the rule. 2. Not everyone is self-motivated to learn. Children, at critical developmental ages, are more prone to…

> School's purpose is not to teach obedience or even getting a job. It is there to teach us critical thinking, and consequently, how to be a good citizen. An educated population is also less prone to fall into totalitarianism. Germany was among the most highly educated countries in the world in the 1930s. The Russian Revolution was an elite phenomenon. In a country of peasants the Revolution was of and by the intelli…

This I can confirm personally. I could read fluently before Kindergarden because my older sister taught me so, not by force, but because I asked what the big letters of luminous advertising on a supermarket meant. So it began :) And I learned to learn by reading everything I could get. By myself.

But: that probably won't work for everyone. Furthermore the question remains how to do that when both parents have to work to make ends meet? Maybe even multiple jobs, as it is common for many nowadays? Also one can't overgeneralize this, as there are good teachers and schools, and bad ones. No matter what country or system or schooltype.

As always: it depends...

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#359
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really trying to draw an equivalence between laziness and illiteracy? It's okay for an adult to be lazy. It's okay for a kid to be lazy. It's probably not great for a homeschooled kid to be lazy, but you can invent games and rewards and other incentives and make this work. But it's irresponsible parenting to allow your homeschooled kid to be illiterate at 10. You're not going to convince me otherwise with com…

I've often found that laziness in reading is correlated with difficulties reading. For example, I know a lot of people who say they are too lazy to watch a movie with subtitles. When you dig deeper, they then tell you that it's hard to follow the movie because they have to concentrate on the subtitles or that the subtitles go too fast. That shows that they are actually not very good readers and. For the specific exam…

> For example, I know a lot of people who say they are too lazy to watch a movie with subtitles. When you dig deeper, they then tell you that it's hard to follow the movie because they have to concentrate on the subtitles or that the subtitles go too fast. That shows that they are actually not very good readers and.

I have a minor quibble with this. I consider myself a "good" reader, at least as far as literal comprehension goes (I was never much good at literary analysis). I can understand pretty much any entry on cppreference. on the rare occasion I lost points on vocab/grammar quizzes in grade school, I was almost always able to persuade the teacher that they themselves were mistaken. FWIW (not a whole lot imo), I got an 800 on the critical reading section of the SAT.

I am however a very slow reader. I absolutely cannot keep up with the subtitles on a foreign film while also taking in the action of the scene. most of my friends in college could probably do a reading assignment in half the time it took me or less. perhaps this is just to protect my delicate ego, but I consider speed at reading words to be one of the least important parts of being a "good reader".

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of our system is that (as much as is possible) education is not limited to the 'elites' and 'intelligentsia.' Rather, it is distributed in a (relatively) egalitarian fashion amongst not just those who call for war and revolution, but those who rot in the trenches and die upon the bayonet. School is excellent at building the cohesive fabric of a society , including teaching it's boredom, authority, and point…

> School is excellent at building the cohesive fabric of a society, including teaching it's boredom, authority, and pointless busywork. I have a feeling that pointless busywork always grows to however much people can bear, so maybe if school didn't condition people to be so tolerant of it, we'd have less of it.

https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/the...

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

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