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When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

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Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#311

Learning of (keyword of) concepts and ideas is fun but the reason schools exist is because most learning is a grind. Learning to draw well, learning a language, learning an instrument, and even learning math and logic require going through the grind of learning and repetition. The grind is only harder if you don't have a good book or teacher because the practice you do could potentially be actively harmful (or useles…

I think the best way to think about grind, is to imagine "time spent grinding" as a scarce resource.

Your kid only has a very limited amount of it to spend; trying to make them grind more than that amount will be absolutely counter-productive and reduce grind "efficiency" to zero.

Which is exactly what schools do: they try to cram as much working, studying and focusing in a kid's daily life as they can, long past the point of diminishing returns; because they assume that a kid's attention is infinitely extensible, and they do very little to actually get their interest.

When you can order a kid to get into a room at set times and to look at a set piece of text and to listen to a single person for arbitrary amounts of times, there's very little to stop you from making every single day a grind a calling it a job well done.

The main benefit of homeschooling is that, if a kid isn't engaged by the teaching materials, you can see it immediately because they'll say so and ask to do something else.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#312

I was homeschooled until the age of around 10, and then my family adopted a new approach called "lifestyle of learning", which is just another way of saying "unschooling". Basically, I was allowed to skip schoolwork, as long as I was doing something productive. I hated schoolwork, so I started spending all my spare time tinkering with stuff on the computer. I wasn't allowed to play video games (since they aren't prod…

Did you ever think about where you could be today if you would have had 'normal' education?

I read your text and i would think you made it despite being home schooled and not because of it.

I assuming this because i was going to school but lazy and if i could go back, i would do things differently.

You don't even know what you missed and you don't even know where you could be today;

And while it did work for you well, it does sound that your brother struggled more .

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#313
post #205

I don't like discussing this, because smart people completely turn their brains off when it comes to discussing it. Somehow homeschooling creates Lake Wobegone, a place where every child manages to be above average. The reality is more homeschooling is completely unregulated in the majority of states, so people can do almost anything. Most states require no formal education from the parents at all to teach. Many don'…

Exactly. I homeschooled through a trad-religious program for one year in 4th or 5th grade and it was unregulated at best. I recall we had to report only our final letter graded to the state, which of course were recorded and granted by the parents, not by the "accredited" school system.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#314
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the basis for thinking public education is the best option for education or for political freedom? Must that always be the case if it once was true? Who would be letting a child go astray in a home education environment? Why would a reasonable parent in #3 not conclude that education can be provided via multiple potentially sources, including themselves and a good curriculum? Why would you not say homeschooli…

Compare the education system in 3rd world countries. Try telling their parents to do homeschooling and you will see how privileged we are.

This whole conversation is about living in a western democracy. However, in various third world countries some alternatives to central ally-applied education are practiced, especially where geography makes it difficult and where it is politically acceptable. This is changing in some interesting ways, positively and negatively, as cellular connections proliferate.

Also, the idea of telling someone to homeschool, in a conversation about liberal arts and attitudes that’s mostly questions so far, is a good reminder that a coercive mindset isn’t easily set aside. Would ask you to consider how your education laid the ground for that.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#315
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Europe and our right wing is taking clues from American right wing. They are more anti mask then average. The German demonstrations against masks were right wing for example. Where were left wing people in Europe more strongly against masks then center or right?

Isn't German right wing in large parts religious so it is closer to USA than many other European right wing parties? I live in Sweden and right wing is much more pro mask here.

The only reason the right wing is pro-mask in Sweden is because it lets them be contrarian to the left-wing government. If the government had been requiring masks, the right-wing in Sweden would be against it.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of our system is ... It seems to me that, to responsibly make a statement of that form, you would have to look at when the system was created and look at the motivations of the people who created it (or made significant changes to the system and its objectives). If we're talking about the compulsory education system, that means looking at when the compulsory education laws were first passed, and what was…

You've obviously looked into the history of the system to a deeper degree than I have. I not only appreciate the effort, but I respect your opinion as to my point. Do you figure I'm making a good point, or do you disagree? If I'm wrong, what is the point of school? Why does every country do it? Again, curious to hear your thoughts.

Based on Rothbard's description... The educationists who pushed for it were not a completely homogeneous group, although they were reasonably well organized.

Some simply thought education was good and weren't bothered by the coercion.

Some subscribed to the absolutist State view going back to Luther and Calvin—people saying things like "in these schools the precepts of morality and religion should be inculcated, and habits of subordination and obedience be formed", "that a teacher must lead his students to accept the existing government", "the children belong to the State and not to their parents", etc.

And some had egalitarian aims along the lines of what you describe. "The vigorous championing of the public school's leveling role appeared again and again in the educationists' literature. Samuel Lewis particularly stressed that the common schools would take a diverse population and mold them into "one people;" Theodore Edson exulted that in such schools the good children must learn to mingle with the bad ones, as they will have to do in later life", and others are cited too.

Although you may be surprised at how far they go. Rothbard says that Owen and Wright—Wikipedia identifies them as utopian socialists—had very extreme plans involving the State raising all children away from their parents in a uniform environment, as the logical conclusion of making the childhoods of the rich and the poor be totally equal; those are the only two he cites advocating this, but he claims they were very influential, the essays published with approval by a great many newspapers, etc. Could be.

Back to what you said: The "including teaching it's boredom, authority, and pointless busywork"—well, authority yes, but the boredom and busywork seem pretty clearly not part of the original plan. I think that's an accident which has developed since then. Which brings me to this point:

Supposing that the above describes the state of affairs in the mid-1800s, a great deal of time has elapsed since then. Private companies with clear goals develop cancer (that is, pockets of people acting selfishly at the organization's expense and subverting the organization's usual methods of enforcing its objectives) on smaller timescales than that. You should expect some ... evolution.

Generally, I expect incentives to direct the evolution of an organization. If we consider the "customers" of an organization to be those who decide if it gets funding, then the customers of a public school are primarily the voters or the politicians they elect, not the students or the parents—except insofar as those can influence voters. (Also, sometimes a school is allocated funds proportional to the number of students, so students voting with their feet could be a force; on the other hand, switching schools involves hassle, losing one's entire social group, and likely a longer commute, so it's likely not used often.)

We might expect this to mean that schools would tend to implement policies that make things pleasant for school employees at the expense of students, as long as they can't be turned into public relations disasters. Continually increasing the homework load, starting school extra-early for teenagers despite decades of research about sleep schedules showing that's a bad idea, and assigning busywork (either in the sense of "literally to keep the students busy while the teacher can sit and relax", or in the sense of "make all 20 students do an extra 5 problems because of the 1-2 people who need the practice") are all examples of this. (Note that, for all these, opposition can be dismissed as "the complainers are lazy bums".) I've had a case where a teacher—a nice guy and a smart guy, I liked and respected him—told me that, if he made an exception to implement my request, he'd have 100 parents beating down his door with their own requests—so, keeping his negotiating position with parents was more important than designing a better program for his student (well, from his incentives, it was more important).

It could be worse. The book "Little Soldiers"—based on what I've read[1] about it—depicts what is apparently considered good practice in modern Chinese education. Students starting at age 3 are required to sit very still and do a delicate and pointless task over and over, and are yelled at whenever they mess up—all to establish "discipline" as early as possible. Parents are expected to fawn over the teachers and, under the table, to buy them gifts. This seems pretty clearly the end state of "optimized for school employees at the expense of students and parents" (well, I guess I could imagine it going even farther...). It seems American parents are more unruly and have a better negotiating position than that.

But generally, beware of ascribing purpose to any particular part of school. If the school was laid out in a coherent design by one person, and it's relatively young and small, and has good competition—then maybe you can expect most of it to be part of the plan. But public schools that have existed for a long time... When you experience busywork, it's not the taste of egalitarianism; it's the taste of organizational cancer.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/cz48fp/litt... and the discussion at https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/01/22/book-review-review-lit...

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#317
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then "famous" is a bit of a stretch. That's a bit rude. I did the same cursory search and realized my friends and I are big fans. Just because you don't recognize the name doesn't mean others don't.

My name is known in certain small circles, it doesn't make me famous. So just because you recognize the name, doesn't mean he's what one would classify as famous.

And the opposite is true too, which is my point. Maybe OPs circle is too tight.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad said when he went to France for work (outside of Paris), they were no longer embarrassed by their poor English, once he shared his abysmal French.

I know an older German fellow who ran away from home as a child and ended up in France for quite some time. The way he tells it, the French would show no mercy as he would struggle to communicate. My personal experiences haven't been quite so terrible, thankfully. At least the old man got some stories out of it!

I think my dad had the benefit of being in areas where no tourists go (industrial areas). So foreigners were a curiosity rather than a nuisance.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#319
post #87

My brother and I were homeschooled, but it was quite structured and we wrote the same provincial exams as every other grade 12 kid. My brother did the SAT as well. We had excellent scores. We both dropped out of college with near perfect GPAs. Today I'm a successful self-taught software engineer now starting a SaaS business. My brother is a famous sci fi author. He makes even more than I do. I think homeschooling let…

Do you mind naming the books your brother has written?

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#320
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? If you're getting good at doing something you love because you love doing it so much, I don't think 'grind' is a word you'd use to describe that time consuming process. I think 'grind' is caused by a disconnect between what the learner is being made to do and what they want to do. Grind can therefore be reduced by providing people with the opportunity…

>It's only a 'grind' if you don't enjoy the process though, right? That's the thing though, even with something you enjoy you will, or should hopefully, hit 'the grind'. That point where it gets hard and you force yourself to keep going even through.the parts you don't enjoy. School forces you to do this, if you're teaching yourself something, you need to force yourself to do this. I can't count the number of times i…

Good teacher can help to overcome barrier. Unfortunately there are not many good teachers. As other pointed out maybe one or two in public school.

I'm with you that practice is a king but blind struggle ruins passion. I've took salsa lessons for several years, drummed it wrong, have to unlearn bad practices. I've took guitar recently, overcome in a few months what could not in school (good enough instrument and youtube videos).

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