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Chess’s Cheating Crisis

theguardian.com

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Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#81

Post by Someone »

throwaway744678 wrote: post #67
wildmanx wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's depending on what you consider a "performance enhancing substance". With basic food and drinks, we surely all agree that that's not the case. But the line starts to get blurry with supplements. Whey? Creatine? Caffeine? Supplement stores are full of this stuff, and a lot is really just a waste of money and exists to milk the amateur gym bro cash cow. But some of those things help. And eventually you cross the…

Well, the line still seems blurry regarding medicines that athletes are allowed to take if they have a specific conditions... For instance, a lot of pro cyclists seem to suffer from asthma (40% vs 8% in the general population)!

“Exercise-induced asthma” is common in many endurance sports, especially winter sports. https://theconversation.com/winter-olympics-why-many-athlete...:

“Exercise-induced asthma is the most common medical problem among winter Olympic athletes, especially among cross-country skiers. Nearly 50% of these athletes suffer from the condition, closely followed by short-track speed skaters at 43%. For figure skaters it’s 21%, Nordic combined it’s 17%, and for ice hockey it’s 15%. By comparison, around 9% of the UK general population suffers from asthma.”

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#82

Post by parthdesai »

Tor3 wrote: post #76
the-dude wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be partially or wholly true. Athletes and the public have a different interpretation of what doping actually is. The public thinks of doping as taking performance enhancing substances. Athletes think of doping as crossing the specified threshold/limit. I have heard this interpretation on TV from a well connected Dutch cycling journalist ( Mart Smeets ). Every athlete takes performance enhancing substances.

> Every athlete takes performance enhancing substances. No. I was one and I didn't. And I knew a lot of athletes. I know how most of them were thinking. What you said is simply not true.

Sorry, i=I don't mean this in a demeaning manner, were you an elite athlete competing in olympics, playing in NBA or premier league? When people say every athlete takes PEDs, it's usually athletes at the very top of their game. And yes, when there are millions or billions (if you're Cristiano Ronaldo or Lebron James) of dollars at stake, athlete's will take any advantage possible.

Do I think every professional athlete is on PEDs? Yes. Does it make what they are doing any less super human? No. It's like your typical person looking at a bodybuilder and saying, I could look like that if i did steroids. Which is total bullshit.

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#83

Post by noneeeed »

hnaccy wrote: post #51
noneeeed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a lot of online conversations recently where the default assumption is that every Olympic sprinter, every cyclist or swimmet, basically every elite athlete is doping. It's pretty sad that we are in a world where you can work incredibly hard to make the most of natural talents and many people will assume you cheated.

When the top 30 100m times all belong to athletes that have been popped for doping with the exception of Usain Bolt you have to ask yourself is he just THAT amazing or is he amazing plus have the best doping team and protection. You have enormous money and prestige on the line and lots of powerful entities (FIFA, IOC, NFL, countries, athletic wear companies, etc) that don't have a huge incentive to catch their golden…

Yep, sprinting is the prime example. If an honest but genetically lucky and hard working sprinter came along today, there would be no way they could convince everyone that they were clean. Not getting caught doping is assumed to mean you are just too good at hiding it.

The dopers have basically ruined sprinting and a number of other sports for anyone who wanta to compete cleanly and does well.

It's entirely possible that Bolt is clean and is a Phelps like genetic outlier, but there will always be suspicions that can never be disproved, no matter what he does.

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#84

Post by aglionby »

paganel wrote: post #25
3np wrote: post #12

> Sarah Longson, a former British ladies’ champion Athletic sports aside, does anyone know the motivation between gender-segregated leagues in games like chess?

> between gender-segregated leagues in games like chess? Because with few exceptions (the Polgar sisters) they didn't manage to compete on the same level as men. Judit Polgar was the highest-ranking women ever (no. 8, in 2005), but 15 years have passed already and there's no woman-challenger in sight. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r

It isn't fair (in the statistical sense) to make a comparison on the basis of rank between an over- and under-represented group. Interesting read here https://en.chessbase.com/post/what-gender-gap-in-chess

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#85

Post by Tor3 »

parthdesai wrote: post #82
Tor3 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every athlete takes performance enhancing substances. No. I was one and I didn't. And I knew a lot of athletes. I know how most of them were thinking. What you said is simply not true.

Sorry, i=I don't mean this in a demeaning manner, were you an elite athlete competing in olympics, playing in NBA or premier league? When people say every athlete takes PEDs, it's usually athletes at the very top of their game. And yes, when there are millions or billions (if you're Cristiano Ronaldo or Lebron James) of dollars at stake, athlete's will take any advantage possible. Do I think every professional athlet…

I had just reached an international level, but I was never at the olympic level. But a whole group I trained with for a time all became professionals, and some of them competed in the olympics. I knew them then before they got there, and I knew their level and their attitudes, and I saw nothing in their professional performances indicating that they had at any point moved into doping. How sure can one be? Never totally sure. But trying to be "sure" about the other possibility (that they were doping) will need more than "yeah, I'm sure they do".

EditAdd: I did know people who were fascinated about EPO-like medication, and asthma medicine when used without actually having asthma. That was when they were quite young, and that's also a long time ago. I never ran into any of them actually using anything, and they were in the minority - I met just two, and sadly one of them died in a traffic accident before he got to a professional level.

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#86

Post by 1-more »

gadders wrote: post #74
Pulcinella wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to see a documentary that is basically what Icarus was going to be before it turned into being about international politics: doping by “weekend warriors” in amateur sports. There is a lot of paranoia in the running community (for example) that even local municipal marathons are being won by amateurs doping (not to mention some people running with those Nike “Vaporfly” shoes with the carbon fiber plate in them.…

At the tested amateur powerlifting federations, you do occasionally see people get popped after a urine test. EG: https://www.britishpowerlifting.org/news/drug-test-results

What bugs me about this is that there is untested powerlifting with better prizes. Go compete there if you want to take PEDs!! Of all the sports PL is the most honest in that it has that outlet at least, but it of course varies by country. The steroids taboo in some countries might discourage the creation of untested federations. That could end up having the wrong effect of encouraging athletes on the fence about punching their natty card; they might stay in the tested federation while using PEDs.

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#87

Post by mtts »

Tor3 wrote: post #76
the-dude wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be partially or wholly true. Athletes and the public have a different interpretation of what doping actually is. The public thinks of doping as taking performance enhancing substances. Athletes think of doping as crossing the specified threshold/limit. I have heard this interpretation on TV from a well connected Dutch cycling journalist ( Mart Smeets ). Every athlete takes performance enhancing substances.

> Every athlete takes performance enhancing substances. No. I was one and I didn't. And I knew a lot of athletes. I know how most of them were thinking. What you said is simply not true.

It is a public secret that at the finish line of cycling races at the junior level, parents stand around swapping tips on which asthma inhaler to get.

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#88

Post by xondono »

noneeeed wrote: post #27
dalbasal wrote: post #18

“ Paranoia has become the culture ” This. For every actual cheating incident, there are many paranoid suspicions. Chess demands an intense focus, and this makes players react emotionally (see chess tantrums). Paranoia is one of these reactions. This "culture of paranoia" is generally pervasive, not just in chess. Once a paranoia inducing phenomenon (like cheating) exists, the paranoia pervades. People know fb & googl…

I've seen a lot of online conversations recently where the default assumption is that every Olympic sprinter, every cyclist or swimmet, basically every elite athlete is doping. It's pretty sad that we are in a world where you can work incredibly hard to make the most of natural talents and many people will assume you cheated.

If you’ve seen how athletes are raised up nowadays, you’ll see why people say that.

There’s an assortment of performance enhancers that are legal in most competitions, and are extensively use by amateurs (think gels in running for example). This things only become doping once a competition bans them, and athletes fight for every advantage. Since competitions are slow to move, stands to reason that all athletes are doping, at least by the standards of tomorrow.

Re: Chess’s Cheating Crisis

#89

Post by mtts »

wildmanx wrote: post #63
nix23 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>basically every elite athlete is doping. Yes this! You have 3 doping levels from cheapest to really expansive: 3: Silver (the doping that is known and detectable) 2: Gold (known and probably detectable but often combined with additional substance to "wash it out" faster or hide it behind other stuff like "legal" painkillers etc) 1: Platinum (doping that is not detectable in the next 5 years "seal of proof by laborat…

Sorry, that's BS. In some sports and some top ranks, maybe there is a lot of money behind. But that's a very narrow view of "elite athlete". I personally know some Olympic finalists in some sports, and they certainly don't see big money. They struggle to actually train full-time over an Olympic cycle (4 years) without having to have some part-time job that puts food on the table and pays for gear, trips to training c…

Which is why, the conspiracy theory goes, it’s only second tier athletic disciplines that have a doping problem. In sports where the real money is, such as football and tennis, it pays to sweep results under the rug. Cyclists and distance skiers, on the other hand, seem to go from one scandal to the next.

Unless an athlete shows up that does manage to bring in serious amounts of money. In that case the lid goes on for a few years.

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