The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights • Hacker News Board

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#281

Post by starfallg » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #219

starfallg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We're already doing this. Really? Because all the video's I've seen indicate politicians of a certain political persuasion (and their family members) doing the utmost to avoid wearing masks in situations that they should have known better. >Until when? The shutdowns were supposed to be about making sure that hospitals have time to prepare, research has time to be done, society has time to adapt. This has already tak…

> Stop building this up into a strawman. Nobody is arguing that lockdowns should last forever. But this is exactly the mindset that I'd characterize as an erosion of "respect for human rights". When the government proposes extraordinary restrictions, it's their responsibility to clearly define how long the restrictions need to last. Answers like "until it's safe" or "stop building this into a strawman" should not sat…

> But this is exactly the mindset that I'd characterize as an erosion of "respect for human rights".

Google "positive rights". It is widely accepted that there are some things we are obliged to do. The base state of our existence is not to do nothing.

You're trying portray what is in effect a public health measure into something sinister and I don't think it's working.

I stand by my assertion that the original point was a strawman. By and large, the initial lockdown measures were put into place by different countries with the goal of solving the immediate threat of overwhelmed ICUs and none were designed to last indefinitely. All of which were relaxed in the summer, but now have to be reintroduced partially in many countries due to the lack of other measures put in place to stem a second wave.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#282

Post by starfallg » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #279

starfallg wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the words "reasonable", here meaning "proportionate". We're not advocating mob rule here. We're asking you to wear a mask, not to kill your first-born.

COVID restrictions are way more than just masks though. In many jurisdictions, we’re requiring small businesses to remain shuttered while their competitors are allowed to remain open. A small toy shop is closed. Meanwhile, Target and Walmart are allowed to sell toys in-person (and Amazon online). What’s going to happen to that toy-shop owner 6 months from now after everyone has been trained to shop at their competito…

Yes, I agree. Not all restrictions are agreed upon, and for those issues that are not easy to balance, great care has to be taken.

This is exactly the situation Manchester is in right now. The UK government has put it into a higher level of lockdown this week, but without the same type of financial support from the previous lockdown. The local government has been fighting this tooth-and-nail, with good reason.

I'm talking about the "my rights" crowd and generally these issues don't overlap with those.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#283

Post by afpx » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 5:28 PM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #253

starfallg wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a prohibition of setting your neighbours house on fire an authoritarian restriction? How about a mandate to clear the pavement/sidewalk in front of your house of snow so that pedestrians don't fall and break their hip? Having laws doesn't mean you're being oppressed.

Except, by definition, you are. We, as a society, have determined that certain freedoms are given up for certain benefits. Is it age discrimination to prevent having a driver’s license before age 16? Yup! Is a freedom taken from you by having a law preventing arson? Yep, and we mostly all agree that is good. The important part of a new rule or law is that we accept the trade offs. I’m not convinced we’ve reached cons…

Are you suggesting that any government rules on the individual are authoritarian? I think most would disagree with that.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#284

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

starfallg wrote: post #281

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stop building this up into a strawman. Nobody is arguing that lockdowns should last forever. But this is exactly the mindset that I'd characterize as an erosion of "respect for human rights". When the government proposes extraordinary restrictions, it's their responsibility to clearly define how long the restrictions need to last. Answers like "until it's safe" or "stop building this into a strawman" should not sat…

> But this is exactly the mindset that I'd characterize as an erosion of "respect for human rights". Google "positive rights". It is widely accepted that there are some things we are obliged to do. The base state of our existence is not to do nothing. You're trying portray what is in effect a public health measure into something sinister and I don't think it's working. I stand by my assertion that the original point…

What I'm trying to portray is that a lot of people think that Covid-19 is more important than most human rights, and nearly any restriction for nearly any duration is acceptable if it'll slow the spread. I think it's entirely fair to call that an "erosion of respect for human rights", and the source article describes many examples of how that can go wrong. As long as Ugandans share the attitude that controlling the spread is the most important thing in the world, President Museveni will be able to continue oppressing his political opponents.

If you think that the leaders in your area are moral enough that they'd never abuse unlimited power in this way... I'm not gonna tell you you're wrong, I don't know, but I'm skeptical.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#285

Post by jointpdf » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 5:48 PM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #274

jointpdf wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, let’s talk about the science supporting mask wearing. Read these and come back with a good faith argument: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768532 https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v3 [Edit: removed “#ref-CR4” from end of first link]

Your argument is the worst possible faith argument but I'll bite and let you waste some of my time with your non scientific citations. Now here's how misguided you are: Literally from the first article you posted: (which was a fricking opinion piece!) “"""If you look at any one paper — it’s not a slam dunk. But, taken all together, I’m convinced that they are working,” says Grabowski."""" "It's not a slam dunk" Anecd…

The second link I posted was co-authored by the director of the CDC. The others are reviews of current evidence that are readable and reputable. There are abundant studies on this subject.

Here is what the WHO actually has to say about masks (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...):

> “ Masks are a key measure to suppress transmission and save lives. Masks reduce potential exposure risk from an infected person whether they have symptoms or not. People wearing masks are protected from getting infected. Masks also prevent onward transmission when worn by a person who is infected.”

> ” Within wider environments where the virus is spreading, masks should be worn by the general public in settings where it is not possible to maintain at least 1 meter from others. Examples of these settings include indoor locations that are crowded and have poor ventilation, public transport and places of high population density – among others.”

Also, masks are not “plague vectors”. Best practice (from WHO) is to clean the mask daily:

> ” If your fabric mask is not dirty or wet and you plan to reuse it, put it in a clean plastic, resealable bag. If you need to use it again, hold the mask at the elastic loops when removing it from the bag. Clean your mask once a day.”

Your rant is not really worth addressing further. Find a better way to spend your time than spreading obvious misinformation.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#286

Post by csnover » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 5:51 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #278

starfallg wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> government says it's the only option. Over here in the UK, the government was dragged into this with their feet kicking. The fact that we were slow to act to stem the initial explosion of cases is the reason why a longer and more drastic lockdown was needed according to the modelling and borne out by data subsequently. Three weeks ago the UK government was warned to start re-imposing measures to stem the second wav…

Right, and it's this idea of "forced" that concerns me. Every country that imposes lockdowns on the premise that they were forced, that they didn't have a choice, they just had to stop the disease from spreading. But very few countries have indicated they have a plan for how to permanently stop the disease from spreading - in most countries, experts believe that there is no workable plan and the disease will spread f…

> But very few countries have indicated they have a plan for how to permanently stop the disease from spreading

What do you even mean by this? Ever since eradication failed, the plan in every country has been mass vaccination.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#287

Post by romanoderoma » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

inops wrote: post #280

romanoderoma wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've not heard "denial", a la Trump, from Johnson. He literally said it himself when he recovered from COVID-19 > A few hours later, he received a positive test result, and the next day he made a video statement in which he said he was self-isolating, but would continue to work and lead Britain’s coronavirus response. > But during the next nine days, as he worked in isolation in an apartment above his official Down…

Nonsense. Nothing in your comment is "denial". The guy got progressively iller. He "felt rough" at one point, and then felt worse. He was commenting on his own state and his perception of it, not making some great statement of it being nothing. He self-isolated throughout during his illness, before going to hospital. This was all against the background of the government shutting down the country's economy in response…

The guy literally said "I was in denial"

I don't know what more I can say...

If you think it's not bad for you, you also think it's not bad for others

But maybe Johnson says things Johnson doesn't agree with.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#288

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 6:38 PM UTC

csnover wrote: post #286

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and it's this idea of "forced" that concerns me. Every country that imposes lockdowns on the premise that they were forced, that they didn't have a choice, they just had to stop the disease from spreading. But very few countries have indicated they have a plan for how to permanently stop the disease from spreading - in most countries, experts believe that there is no workable plan and the disease will spread f…

> But very few countries have indicated they have a plan for how to permanently stop the disease from spreading What do you even mean by this? Ever since eradication failed, the plan in every country has been mass vaccination.

Mass vaccination isn't expected to stop the disease from spreading. I know some regions have made plans under the assumption that vaccines will eradicate the virus, but no experts that I'm aware of think that's likely. (Other countries have said that they're just going to be okay with whatever level of disease burden exists after a vaccine, which I think is a defensible plan.)

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#289

Post by dTal » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #197

thebeefytaco wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Whether you agree with it or not, how would a mask mandate not be an authoritarian restriction?

Are all legal restrictions on what clothes you should wear in public authoritarian to you? Many of them exist to make sure you don't die (eg. food prep/serving sanitation, medical practice) of preventable causes. If "authoritarian" includes every rule that affects how we interact with each other in public you've pretty much gone into nihilistic territory it seems to me.

A significant political contingent does indeed object to any and all rules. They call themselves nice words like "libertarian" and "small government", but the basic ideology is really just anarchy.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#290

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #227

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like redditors in particular hate Bolsanaro just because he's right wing. What you've said is incredibly sad though.

> Bolsanaro He is much more than just "right wing." He routinely praises the junta and says that their mistake was not killing enough leftists. That is not normal.

There is nothing wrong with a Junta as a form of government. Often times military governments are required to transition to a democratic one. I mean half of south america basically had them.

They are effective forms of government required to retain order and stability so that democracy can ensue. The reason we don't see them be successful in african countries because they are often very poor, have immense cultural issues, and the government can't effectively maintain control. Even established regimes can't even perform basic functions of governance because corruption even within their own administration.