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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#221

Post by jacquesm »

mrkramer wrote: post #125
jacquesm wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But China, arguably not much of a democracy did just fine. So the whole link between the pandemic and political systems is mostly nonsense, the countries where the impact is least are simply the ones that reacted fastest and most decisive. Everybody else is playing catch-up and they may have to substantially pause their 'freedoms' and 'democratic rights' to get through to the other side. This is a simple result…

So you believe in information that Chinese communist party is providing. A totalitarian regime with mass violation of human rights?! I love China and Chinese people but people suffer a lot under the rule of CCP. They are faking their financial data and they are faking their COVID data as well.

I believe that if a regime shares information that is at face value negative for that regime that we can believe them in so far as that aspect is concerned. China has shared a lot of information around the pandemic that can be classed as 'draconian countermeasures', but they do seem to have the COVID situation under control.

If you want to argue the opposite then you should substantiate that with data and sources, rather than just with claims left hanging without support.

I'm sure there is going to be some discrepancy between the facts and what we get from official communications but at this point in time there are very few governments left that have been 100% transparent during this whole saga. China likely is no exception to that but I would not expect them a-priori to be worse than say Russia or some of the countries of the EU.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#222

Post by pelasaco »

notreallytrue wrote: post #190
pelasaco wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are creating a rhetoric that doesn't exist. There are 0 risk to be critics to south american regimes online. Maybe Venezuela? To compare the Brazilian Government with The Nazi Period, you are not making the Brazilian Government look bad, but you are making the Nazi Period look harmless. From my personal life (my family moved from what today is Poland to Brazil, around 40s). Today 80 years after, I feel safe to we…

> To compare the Brazilian Government with The Nazi Period Never did. I compared the military coups, which Bolsonaro is rooting for, undeniably, to the military government the nazi-fascists had over Germany and Italy and then Europe. They came to power thanks to the military support. As every far right movement usually does. Bolsonaro is praising and rallying for a return of the military dictatorship. He was there, i…

> So did thousands of former SS officials who went to live there after WW2, protected and kept hidden.

Bolsonaro helped them too?

> Sao Pauol has a much higher crime rate and 10 to 15 times worse homicide rate than Berlin, you might feel safer, but you are not safer.

I don't know if you understood what I meant, but I'm Jewish and because of antisemitism, which we have back in cities like in Berlin or Paris, I don't feel there safe there as I felt in Sao Paulo.

> Have you seen supporters of Merkel or Macron write something like that?

You don't have idea about the CSU/CDU parties (parties from Merkel) in Germany. But again, no reference, "somebody said, bla bla", just the socket puppet in the internet saying.

You are trolling with a lot of "factoids" to support your agenda and to avoid being down-voted you created a socket puppet.

What make you angry are stuff like:

- https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/oct/10/j...

- https://www.businessinsider.com/bolsonaro-more-popular-ever-...

Fun fact IMO which makes the whole South American soup even more interesting and supports my argument that the Government Politics has nothing to do with his personal ideas: He was personally against this "monthly emergency aid payment", and it was mainly pushed by the opposition, but now he is being treated like Hero because of that and enjoying the popularity.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#223

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

thebeefytaco wrote: post #187
starfallg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

>People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Whether you agree with it or not, how would a mask mandate not be an authoritarian restriction?

You're confusing a mild inconvenience for oppressing your freedoms.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#224

Post by jacquesm »

pasabagi wrote: post #153
jacquesm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World War II has been over for a while and Germany has a scientist as the leader of the country. Human rights in Germany improved as a result of WWII because Germany - unlike any other country - has seen first hand what will happen when you let human rights slide.

I think it's more that Germans, unlike most nationalities, had great psychological and political incentives to imagine themselves as the victims of human rights abuses, but unlike real victims of human rights abuses, didn't face an entrenched establishment designed to keep them from asserting their rights. It's important to remember that Germans, as in present Germans, are very rarely descendants of those who 'saw fi…

> It's important to remember that Germans, as in present Germans, are very rarely descendants of those who 'saw first hand' the atrocities of the Nazis, unless you count the perspective of the perpetrators.

On the contrary, the vast majority of the Germans alive today are the descendants of those who saw these things 'first hand'. You have this about as backwards as it gets.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#225

Post by treeman79 »

jskdvsksnb wrote: post #128
refurb wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t Ontario and Quebec going through a massive 2nd wave right now? And there have been protests against the restrictions including one on Parliament Hill. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-rally-ottawa-1.570...

The protests have been very small, despite the media doing their best to promote them. If you look at someone like Doug Ford, the extremely conservative, pro-business premier of Ontario, he has consistently advocated for masking and lockdowns as needed. He was tight-fisted with funds for testing, and overly eager to reopen businesses before fall/winter when outdoor dining would be untenable. That set the stage for ou…

Had several boat parades involving many thousands of boats, crowds of tens of thousands.

Media had a brief report that a boat flipped over. No other mention of the rally.

Seeing daily rallies and parades Driving around now. Zero mention on local news channels.

Drove threw 3 states. We saw one Biden bumper sticker. No signs. Thousands of Trump signs.

Media is extremely biased in its reporting.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#226

Post by pasabagi »

watwut wrote: post #170
pasabagi wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more that Germans, unlike most nationalities, had great psychological and political incentives to imagine themselves as the victims of human rights abuses, but unlike real victims of human rights abuses, didn't face an entrenched establishment designed to keep them from asserting their rights. It's important to remember that Germans, as in present Germans, are very rarely descendants of those who 'saw fi…

Yes to some extend in relation to holocaust. No in relation to Nazi victims in general. Jews were not only German victims of it all and most killed Jews were foreign. (German Jewish minority was rather small). As any other regime, it had huge amount of other victims too. The crimes against non-jewish germans are part of the whole thing and part of reason for robust rights. So was the destruction of Germany after all…

>crimes against non-jewish germans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_...

makes for interesting reading. Particularly the line: "some homosexuals were forced to serve out their terms of imprisonment, regardless of the time spent in concentration camps". Although it's hard to say if that was the Germans or the Allies who were responsible. Perhaps both?

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#227

Post by whimsicalism »

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #108
speeder wrote: post #95

In my country at least a lot of that has to do with the media and our current supreme court. Despite Brazil having the most advanced constitution in the world regarding human rights, local leaders have been ignoring it outright, and when the president complained the media portrayed the president as a genocidal dictator, and when the president sued the governors and mayors to force them to obey the constitution, the s…

I feel like redditors in particular hate Bolsanaro just because he's right wing. What you've said is incredibly sad though.

> Bolsanaro

He is much more than just "right wing." He routinely praises the junta and says that their mistake was not killing enough leftists.

That is not normal.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#228

Post by notreallytrue »

koolba wrote: post #89
notreallytrue wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not? Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"? The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt…

It’s the opposite. He’s literally arming the population to prevent a future totalitarian takeover: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/world/americas/guns-brazi... Dictators don’t encourage their people to be able to defend themselves.

Who is receiving the guns?

Mussolini did the same thing, he knew very well guns were not going to opposition but to his supporters that used them to kill or oppress his opponents.

The rhetoric of "citizens that simply want to defend themselves" is an empty one.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#229

Post by jointpdf »

thebeefytaco wrote: post #187
starfallg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence. People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you do…

>People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Whether you agree with it or not, how would a mask mandate not be an authoritarian restriction?

I can think of a few reasons:

- 75% of Americans (incl. a majority of republicans) support mask mandates. (The US isn’t a direct democracy, but mask mandates have the green light from the general public). [https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-understanding-the-out...]

- One of the main functions of any government is to mitigate the harm that people do to one another. This is the main thing that distinguishes it from anarchy. Not wearing a mask in crowded places (in expectation) causes harm to others. Obviously there is a cost/benefit involved, so welding people into their homes is too extreme.

- There is effectively zero enforcement of these mandates. I’ve never seen cops or workers enforce these rules. On the other hand, if I walked into a grocery store without pants on, I’d bet my ass that I’d get swiftly carted off to the loony bin.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#230

Post by whimsicalism »

christophilus wrote: post #144
jpxw wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to note, America has been doing this since Obama ( https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigran... )

Or since before it was a nation, and ever since then, depending on what cages you care to look at.

> depending on what cages you care to look at.

Yeah, although never before on the scale that we've seen post-1980.

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