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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#141

Post by starfallg »

cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

People aren't asking for authoritarian restrictions. People have been asking for common-sense coordinated and effective measures that we can all rally around (like wearing masks). Instead we have ineffective politically driven responses marked by indecision and incompetence.

People don't want lockdowns, but we recognise that because our containment measures have failed, we have no choice but to shut things. If you don't want a lockdown, the government has to do a better job of coordinating measures to lower the R rate, which they (here in the UK but also in the US) failed to respond promptly with measures that anybody with a bit of common sense would agree with.

Why did it take months for the government to be recommending face masks? Don't say it's because of the shortage of PPE for health care workers because a friend made around 40 cotton masks over a weekend for all of her friends and family back in early April. The Japanese government was giving out 2 fabric masks for every resident at that time while we were arguing over whether they were effective or not.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#142

Post by christophilus »

burlesona wrote: post #136
cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

I would argue it’s coming from the system. The national two party first-past-the-post system naturally leads to hyper-partisanship and constantly escalating stakes, meanwhile fewer and fewer Americans truly feel represented by the choices they have on offer - and very large numbers of people have their vote effectively ignored because their voting precinct is gerrymandered to ensure stable one-party rule. Because the…

I’m with you. I have voted for an Nth party every presidential election since I was 18. Every single time I was told that I was throwing my vote away or voting for one of the major party villains. Every single time, I was told that this was the most important election of my lifetime, and just this once, I needed to bite the bullet and vote for a major party.

Not doing it.

That entire narrative needs to change.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#143

Post by eznzt »

romanoderoma wrote: post #132
eznzt wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are. If people don't want democracy then they should not have it.

That's not democracy, that's dictatorship of the majority https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majorit... https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-t...

That's what democracy is. The current "tyranny of the minority" that we live in is an anomaly (and quite undemocratic)

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#144

Post by christophilus »

jpxw wrote: post #71
bsder wrote: post #11

The US was putting people in cages before the pandemic. The level of the pandemic in the US is an effect of decreased democracy and respect for human rights--not a cause.

Just to note, America has been doing this since Obama ( https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigran... )

Or since before it was a nation, and ever since then, depending on what cages you care to look at.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#145

Post by romanoderoma »

eznzt wrote: post #143
romanoderoma wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not democracy, that's dictatorship of the majority https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majorit... https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-t...

That's what democracy is. The current "tyranny of the minority" that we live in is an anomaly (and quite undemocratic)

I'm sure you can write a book and disprove what Tocqueville wrote about what constitutes a democracy and what does not.

Personally I'm still on the Tocqueville's side.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#146

Post by maxerickson »

nemo44x wrote: post #115
pbourke wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rational, educated populace doesnt explain away the difference between Italy vs Austria, Belgium & Netherlands vs Germany, the US vs Canada In the case of US vs Canada, perhaps it does. Canadians have a high level of trust in expert civil servants, including public health officials. There is also a general Canadian pragmatism that kicks in: politicians from across the country and across the political spectrum have…

Canada has little population density outside it’s local hubs. The virus isn’t going to spread so easily there outside of localities. The USA has more metro areas that are drivable to each other. It’s easier to spread in the USA. Look at the massive EU numbers and consider their density.

Rural places in the US are doing a dandy job of spreading it right now.

In this rural county, daily new infections are at something like 400/million. That rate is arrived at with a big enough multiplier, but it is a reasonable basis for comparison. Our cumulative case / million is ~23000.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#147

Post by u801e »

christophilus wrote: post #142
burlesona wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it’s coming from the system. The national two party first-past-the-post system naturally leads to hyper-partisanship and constantly escalating stakes, meanwhile fewer and fewer Americans truly feel represented by the choices they have on offer - and very large numbers of people have their vote effectively ignored because their voting precinct is gerrymandered to ensure stable one-party rule. Because the…

I’m with you. I have voted for an Nth party every presidential election since I was 18. Every single time I was told that I was throwing my vote away or voting for one of the major party villains. Every single time, I was told that this was the most important election of my lifetime, and just this once, I needed to bite the bullet and vote for a major party. Not doing it. That entire narrative needs to change.

> Every single time I was told that I was throwing my vote away or voting for one of the major party villains.

The refrain essentially is that you must vote for the candidate we say is most likely to win and if you don't, then you're helping the next runner up.

I believe that if we no longer reported polling results and had election results reported at the same time, then the problem I describe above would be significantly reduced.

The fact that primaries are not held at the same time leads the results of earlier primaries influencing the results of later ones. The fact that election results from the eastern part of the country are reported while the western part is still voting influences the results.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#148

Post by mechnesium »

cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

I agree with you completely. I get regularly downvoted here for promoting free speech and denouncing all forms of web censorship.

Websites and their obscure “Terms of Service” and “Community Guidelines” are eroding those rights and should be fully compliant with the first amendment if operating in the United States, similar to how websites operating in the EU must comply with the GDPR.

I forgot how the United States is just about the only country with virtually unlimited free speech, so the downvotes must come from a place of envy.

Edit: Downvotes have proven my point :-)

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#149

Post by notherthrowaway »

cwhiz wrote: post #130

In this forum, right here on HN, people routinely espouse desire for more authoritarian restrictions. People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails. The article makes it sound as if the erosion of democracy is coming from the top. In the USA, it’s coming from the bottom. It’s coming from everyday citizens.

==People gleefully discuss Sweden and almost openly hope that their lockdown-free plan fails.==

What I see is the opposite, lots of people who want to copy Sweden’s plan regardless of the toll it took on human life. Others want to put mask orders in place to protect more people.

Meanwhile, we have unmarked federal agents roaming cities, a President who fires Inspector Generals and ignores subpoenas without punishment, and a sitting Senator calling for “no quarter” for protestors. Those are all pretty authoritarian moves and they come straight from the top. If you think “everyday citizens” are the authoritarian threat, your risk analysis might be off.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#150

Post by SayItStraight »

pelasaco wrote: post #74
romanoderoma wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That must be a joke. Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro"

> Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally > wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro Please, add reference for that. The democracy is working as usual in Brazil, nothing changed. No rights was taken away from the people and no riots or civil conflicts are worse than before. Look America, France and Germany where the social fabric is partially destroyed.

Tiraflechas, are you serious?
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