AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service • Hacker News Board

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#591

Post by barumi » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

cacois wrote: post #409

sslayer wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the legal aspect of the licensing determines what is "right", otherwise the definition of "right" can be interpreted different ways. Don't be fooled, both parties entered into a contract. One when they published the software, and one when they used the software. Any expectations outside of that are left undocumented.

Even agreed-upon contracts can be predatory. Maybe there should be a license that says "free and clear for everyone but trillion-dollar companies, because they should really compensate developers for value". I personally think it would be a great look for Amazon if they made it a policy to compensate developers from whom they derive significant economic value. Because they can, and because the developers deserve it.

If developers expected to get compensated for the work they explicitly and voluntarily released for anyone and everyone in the world for absolutely free, wouldn't they have released it under different terms? I mean, it sounds awfully dishonest to do a 180 on the expectations once a user with a deep enough wallet happens to be singled out.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#592

Post by barumi » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

tnolet wrote: post #331

mjasay wrote: post #297

I run the open source strategy and marketing team at AWS. As I told Tim privately and publicly ( https://twitter.com/mjasay/status/1317084448119169024 ), I hadn't been aware of this but am talking with the relevant product team to see how we can improve in his regard. AWS uses a lot of open source, and we contribute a lot, both in terms of code (first-party projects like Firecracker and Bottlerocket, but also third-p…

OP here. Matt and I are chatting about this. We will work it out. As per my tweet, it's not about the letter of the licensing, it's about the spirit.

> As per my tweet, it's not about the letter of the licensing, it's about the spirit.

I don't understand. Wasn't the project released under a license that explicitly grants anyone the right to freely use it as they see fit?

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#593

Post by calcifer » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

orangechairs wrote: post #585

cacois wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think there's room for more than gratitude with, as you said, a trillion dollar company. I know its hard to find a balance when we want free and open tools, developed in a spirit of sharing and enabling innovation. But something feels slimy about an enormous company deriving a huge amount of revenue from a FOSS project, when they could easily compensate developer(s) with barely an impact to their bottom li…

Amazon stealing OSS products and repackaging them for profit is a behavior they are replicating over and over. Big and small projects alike are neither protected nor immune (see Mongo, Elastic, Redis,...) To see so much of the developer community respond by placing blame on the developers is heartbreaking and at the root of the tragedy of open source. It's either: your fault for using a permissive license OR shame on…

Of course the blame is on the developers. If you don't want commercial enterprises to repackage your project and exclude you, choose a license that says that! How is this even controversial?

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#594

Post by barumi » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

branon wrote: post #427

tunesmith wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, how would you define ethically different than morally?

It was my impression that morality regards the beliefs of one person/entity (here, Amazon) while ethics refers to a different/opposing group. So clearly Amazon has no moral scruples about doing what they did, but to us (or others) it's ethically ambiguous.

> So clearly Amazon has no moral scruples about doing what they did

Dude, they picked a software project that was released to the world under a license that explicitly allows anyone and everyone to use it as they see fit, and they proceeded to use the software.

Please do explain exactly wheredo you see any breech in morality.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#595

Post by jgowdy » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 10:52 PM UTC

I don't understand why people get upset about this. It's called open source for a reason. If you want recognition when someone uses your open source project, pick a license that has an advertising clause.

This is similar to other open source projects which GPL their project instead of AGPL, and then get angry when people and companies (like Amazon), literally abide by the terms of your license but you don't like the outcome. Then they act all offended like someone did something wrong. If you don't like it, switch your project to AGPL and stop trying to act like someone did anything but honor the license you released your code under.

People like this do damage to open source because they blindly pick their licenses rather than understanding what they mean.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#596

Post by jgowdy » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #42

There are some replies in this thread that misunderstood the content of Tim Nolet's twitter post. (Probably because the short headline has pitchfork raising overtones.) - He's not complaining that Amazon forked his code with Apache license. He admits he also uses other open source with permissive licenses - He just thought it would be nice/courteous/polite/etc if Amazon acknowledge/recognized/credited/mentioned/thank…

> In other words, I'm not aware of a permissive license that's the same as BSD/Apache with the only difference in that also says "use it as you wish but you must mention my name when you're a commercial enterprise making a splashy product announcement".

That's called the old BSD 4 clause license. Now you know.

https://spdx.org/licenses/BSD-4-Clause.html

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#597

Post by jgowdy » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 11:02 PM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #551

kortilla wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s open source, if you’re mad a company used the software in a way you don’t like, you’re not really getting it.

There's a difference between what is legally required and the greater good. Obviously, no one involved in this post is guilty of any literal crime. As you're suggesting, the license is the license. But OSS is a fragile and wonderful thing, and an entity with the resources and clout of AWS would (at least in my opinion) do well to tend that garden rather than strip it bare.

I have accepted your terms and I am using your software in a manner that is compliant with your terms. Yet you are trying to burden me with some extra ethereal terms that you're coming up with after the fact and justifying through weird collectivist statements like "the greater good."

Use an open source license that contains ALL of the terms you want involved. You don't get to back out of the open source deal or heap guilt on others because you have regrets about other people literally complying with your terms.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#598

Post by branweb » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 11:02 PM UTC

barumi wrote: post #590

orangechairs wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon stealing OSS products and repackaging them for profit is a behavior they are replicating over and over. Big and small projects alike are neither protected nor immune (see Mongo, Elastic, Redis,...) To see so much of the developer community respond by placing blame on the developers is heartbreaking and at the root of the tragedy of open source. It's either: your fault for using a permissive license OR shame on…

> Amazon stealing OSS products and repackaging them (...) Since when does providing managed services started to pass off as "stealing"? Am I stealing FLOSS projects as well if I install them on a production environment? It makes zero sense to try to pull this sort of bait-and-switch scam with FLOSS. If you release a project into the world while explicitly stating that everyone in the whole world is free to use it as…

I think you have a point. But there does seem to be a difference between say using FLOSS project X as a dependency in my app vs AWS tweaking it, introducing it as a direct competitor to X, and leveraging their huge marketshare to sell it. Seems like not illegal, not even sure if it's ethically shaky, but there does seem to be a difference right?

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#599

Post by didibus » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #532

didibus wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you're saying the only courtesies we should render to others in life are ones that we're duty-bound by license agreements or other contracts to give? Isn't that the whole point behind the rule of law and the civil society? Anything that isn't well understood or known in advance of someone engaging in an activity, and then later faces unfair retribution because apparently they didn't do what wasn't told to them t…

> Anything that isn't well understood or known in advance of someone engaging in an activity, and then later faces unfair retribution because apparently they didn't do what wasn't told to them that needed be done, or did something that wasn't told to them shouldn't be done. Your argument self-contradicts. You assert, broadly, if it's legal it's OK. The "unfair retribution" of people getting annoyed about it and compl…

Well, there are rules around defamation, libel and slander. But you're right, there's no laws saying one cannot guilt trip someone else or shame them for their behavior even if they are acting legally.

I think this is me criticizing those same "social norms". In my opinion, it is unfair to guilt trip someone or have hidden expectations when someone does a good deed for you. Especially when you decided to do the deed on your own and you went and promoted it for others to benefit and use.

Obviously it's nice when you do something and others thank you and acknowledge you for it. But it isn't nice when someone complains they're not getting a thank you for something they choose to do willingly and weren't asked to do.

Now I reckon here it's a bit different, because we're talking about two actors of very uneven footing, and I would like to see Amazon being more thankful and recognising the hard work of open source contributors. I agree with that sentiment. I just wanted to say that in general, yes those social norms are often against what I'd consider a free society, since they are just another axis of power to force you into behaviors you might not have agreed to participate in.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#600

Post by cute_boi » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 11:21 PM UTC

lscotte wrote: post #528

kortilla wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s open source, if you’re mad a company used the software in a way you don’t like, you’re not really getting it.

Exactly. Don't use an open ended license and then complain about it. If you want to restrict use, then license it appropriately. Very simple and obvious.

this is not about license . Its about other aspect of oss.