AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service • Hacker News Board

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#551

Post by ketzo » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:12 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #507

ketzo wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source software is something that has no meaningfully similar parallel in any other industry, and that has created untold billions (trillions?) of value across the world while also allowing literally anyone to carve out a piece of that value. That is special. That is wonderful. It is a place for idealism. And honestly, it's worth getting angry about when people (and companies) don't respect it and improve upon i…

It’s open source, if you’re mad a company used the software in a way you don’t like, you’re not really getting it.

There's a difference between what is legally required and the greater good. Obviously, no one involved in this post is guilty of any literal crime. As you're suggesting, the license is the license.

But OSS is a fragile and wonderful thing, and an entity with the resources and clout of AWS would (at least in my opinion) do well to tend that garden rather than strip it bare.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#552

Post by maurys » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:12 PM UTC

Does anyone know the exact details of what Redis is using to prevent something like this?

I think they have a clause saying you can't provide Redis as a Service without paying royalty.

It does feel like we go in circles sometimes in tech, all these license discussions, closed v/s open v/s closed.

I really hope AWS does the decent thing and acknowledges and maybe even donates to the project.

This whole bit reeks of mercenary behaviour. Sure, the license allows it, but AWS still can afford to be a better citizen.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#553

Post by nickff » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:15 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #420

tnolet wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP here. Matt and I are chatting about this. We will work it out. As per my tweet, it's not about the letter of the licensing, it's about the spirit.

> it's not about the letter of the licensing, it's about the spirit If it's not in black and white then it's not part of the license. Spirit isn't defined. To paraphrase Theo de Raadt, if you're not happy for your code to be used in a puppy mulching machine then don't license it under a permissive license.

Other people are saying this, but AWS is taking a reputational risk here. If things get bad enough, we could end up with no-Amazon clauses in OSS.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#554

Post by ketzo » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:16 PM UTC

new_realist wrote: post #501

ketzo wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Open source software is something that has no meaningfully similar parallel in any other industry, and that has created untold billions (trillions?) of value across the world while also allowing literally anyone to carve out a piece of that value. That is special. That is wonderful. It is a place for idealism. And honestly, it's worth getting angry about when people (and companies) don't respect it and improve upon i…

Patents and copyright are the parallels in other industries, although they compensate inventors more. Eventually it all goes into the public domain.

But GE isn't paying engineers to put out new lightbulb filament designs to the public (and other companies).

Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, and many, many other companies are literally building tools for their competitors.

That's so outside the realm of possibility in any other industry that a copyright lawyer (or executive) in any heavily-patented field would laugh you out of their office for suggesting something like that.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#555

Post by tonyedgecombe » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

prewett wrote: post #343

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got a new oven last year and it came with a sheet of paper acknowledging all the open source software it used.

I'm really curious what open source software an oven uses? I would think all it needs is timers and a temperature monitoring loop.

I didn't keep the sheet, the only one I remember is FreeType which must be for the digital display.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#556

Post by thelittlenag » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

drevil-v2 wrote: post #535

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's painful to contrast FDR's thoughts on finance with what we heard last night: > "Okay, first of all, let me answer. What they did is illegal, number one. Also, the numbers are all wrong, with the numbers they released. And just so you understand, when you have a lot of real estate, I have real estate, you know a lot of it. Okay? Right down the road, Doral, big stuff, great stuff. When I decided to run, I’m very u…

I think that is an unfair comparison. Being articulate does not does not imply any other quality than just being articulate. Back in the day I thought Obama was amazing. He was articulate and considered in his manner of speech. Then we hearing about the drone strikes with heavy collateral damage. And then Snowden came out and told us how Obama administration had put in place all the necessary infrastructure for a sur…

> Obama administration had put in place all the necessary infrastructure for a surveillance state

I do not think that is accurate. The Obama administration sustained the growth from the previous administration. I do wish they had curtailed this growth, but c'est la vie.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#557

Post by tsimionescu » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:29 PM UTC

fractionalhare wrote: post #542

momokoko wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would disagree in the specific case of AWS. We have not seen such an egregious abuse of open source software with any other company. Most companies that make use of a large amount of opensource actually contribute a fair amount back. Like hiring on the core developers or making a large amount of code fixes and feature development contributions. Amazon does neither of these things. Take a look at any highly successf…

> We have not seen such an egregious abuse of open source software with any other company. Most companies that make use of a large amount of opensource actually contribute a fair amount back. I don't think your claim about Amazon is true. But even if it is, it's not relevant. None of the OSI licenses require improvements to be contributed back to the original project. The most restrictive of them simply requires impr…

> The intention of open source licenses was never to force those who redistribute the software to improve on it. It was to provide end users with the freedom to be able to do that themselves, by distributing the improvements as well.

Perhaps that was the intentions of the license creators, but famously Linus for example chose the GPL license precisely as a quid pro quo - I give you code for free, you give me back code for free.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#558

Post by xigency » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:32 PM UTC

tuna-piano wrote: post #383

If Amazon employees started tipping 0% at restaurants in Seattle, they would be legally correct. But that would certainly impact the way restaurants needed to operate. Sometimes communities get built up on a shared system that involves a certain amount of shame, embarrassment and feelings of communal good and following norms in order to continue. Open source software seems to be that type of community. Sure, you can…

I hear you, but tipping is a widely accepted practice. As a software developer I use tons of open source software and I'm aware of how much open source software is used in commercial products I use as well. And still I can't recall seeing credits with the original developers' names ever outside of a license file. I'm not saying that is good or bad, but it doesn't seem to be standard practice.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#559

Post by arminiusreturns » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #497

toyg wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And would that be a bad thing? If the tool is good, FOSS users will get a competitive advantage over AWS.

I had several discussions with fellow students in Uni about GPL vs. BSD licensing and BSD licensed code is, IMO, more free and more accessible - it really depends on what you want out of your code. Is your goal to provide a useful tool as a one-off that anyone can pick up and use? Then BSD is for you - otherwise, if you have expectations around self-maintenance of the code by consumers then you want to lean more towa…

GPL is about freedom for the user, BSD/MIT is about freedom for the devs. Not all users are devs, but all devs are users. GPL is the better license for net freedom.

It baffles me how many people fail to understand this.

Re: AWS forked my project and launched it as its own service

#560

Post by BeetleB » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 8:37 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #280

xtracto wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, these kind of threads sound similarly to how some companies I have worked for sound when talking about working on Saturdays: Me: Do we have to come to work on Saturdays? Boss: You dont HAVE to... but you know, people come and do work to go the extra mile. Me: Ok, but If I don't come, there's no problem right? Boss: Well, no, there's no problem. But you know, there's lots of work and it is great when people pus…

Sure, but this is a situation about social norms rather than passive aggressive employer behavior. Typically when a product or service is released, if it's built significantly upon something else, you at least throw out a quick acknowledgement. Sure, it's not the law, it's just polite/kind/whatever nice word you prefer to use. All sorts of communities have various 'norms' of this nature which you are totally entitled…

> Sure, but this is a situation about social norms rather than passive aggressive employer behavior.

Every time I come across a thread - on any forum - where people are educating others that something is a social norm, it is because it is not. They merely want it to be.

If you have a good number of people disagreeing on it, take it as a humble suggestion that norms differ across geos, industries, culture, etc. Don't insist on it, because it will come across as an imposition.

Unrelated to the content in my comment above, I look at this from the same lens I look at products in my engineering world. We don't find a need to credit Claude Shannon, John Von Neumann, Tony Hoare, etc in all our products. I find this to be OK.