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ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

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Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#161

Sciter's author here. What would be strategies in case of Kickstarter campaign will fail? In principle I can publish it for free as it is now but I definitely don't want it to be one more of abandon-ware projects that are open sourcing as the end of life. In general OS development is significantly more costly (for the author) as closed source one - for many reasons. So OS development needs steady stream of funding. S…

> What would be strategies in case of Kickstarter campaign will fail?

I think you chose the wrong goal here.

I don't think you really want a one-time, lump sum donation to "unlock" your code under a FOSS license.

I would think you want regular, recurring payments to keep you in the job of writing the code that pushes the project forward.

Judging from the cron job of "Electron-so-fat" posts here on HN, there may be an audience for that. And judging from the fact that you've already raised close to $10,000 to unlock the initial code, unlocking code may be a sufficient incentive to get that audience to pay you to do the work.

But to keep that number up for recurring payments I think you've got to keep on the "Farmville" route, at least if you want to get paid anywhere near the going rate. That is, there needs to be a risk not only that you abandon the project if you don't get paid, but something the audience cares about will quickly die if the payment goals aren't met. You're kind of doing that here with the MIT license being a kind of "stretch" goal, but I think you could do it more effectively on a recurring basis with the code itself.

AFAICT you can achieve the following approach with either choice of the MIT or GPL (either version). That is:

1. you work on the next feature in private

2. get it ready for a release

3. release a video of you demo'ing the feature

4. if your recurring payment goal gets met for this period, you commit the feature to the public repo

5. if not, you delete it

This complies with both licenses-- there is no requirement in either to share the source code for a binary that you haven't released yet.

I will admit it is seems strange, as there's a chance you'll have to delete useful code if the goals aren't met. But if you don't take that approach you risk continuing to develop a project for an audience that isn't willing to pay the going rate. That, and the burnout that it causes, is a much bigger problem than my suggested approach could ever be.

Besides, this is how most businesses work anyway. No drive through is handing out the food first and collecting the money second.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#162

Sciter is a very nice engine with a solid API/SDK and rock solid engineering behind it. For developers building efficient UI apps it can be a real alternative method to things like electron or as a lighter alternative to QT with QML script. However until now it was only available under commercial licence. Andrew Fedoniouk ( a.k.a. c-smile Sciter's original developer) has a kickstarter to fund open sourcing and suppor…

If they're still trying to fund open-sourcing it, what is in this repo?

The repo only contains binaries for Windows (no source).

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#163

Nitpick: > Note that transfer of 1GB of data produces 3kg of CO2. This is wrong, it's closer to 29 grams of CO2 for 1GB, on average. Of course it depends on the mix of power sources used. https://www.iea.org/commentaries/the-carbon-footprint-of-str... It doesn't change the point of the comparison, the smaller size is still good.

Yeah... The "1GB of data transfer --> 3kg of CO2" is high by orders of magnitude.

Computer systems and network equipment have a fixed install and fixed operational costs. I think the incremental energy cost of transferring 1GB across 5000km is on the order of 1000 Joules of energy. I think 10Gb optical transfer requires less than 10W per 100km... this probably a really high upper limit (equipment electrical power plus cooling power).

1000 J is roughly equal to 0.0003 kWh 1 kWh electrical power generation produces about 200-500g CO2 depending upon the electrical grid.

So that would work out to about 0.15grams per 1GB of data, at the most. The fixed upfront equipment costs and carbon footprint do need to the factored in as well but they are not going to amount to much.

So yeah... we talking about less than a gram of CO2 per 1GB.

I don't care to run the numbers further than this...

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#164

Sciter's author here. What would be strategies in case of Kickstarter campaign will fail? In principle I can publish it for free as it is now but I definitely don't want it to be one more of abandon-ware projects that are open sourcing as the end of life. In general OS development is significantly more costly (for the author) as closed source one - for many reasons. So OS development needs steady stream of funding. S…

Open source development doesn't have to be more costly than closed source, except in this case it might be if you end up believing the people who tell you that the best way to be successful is to cut off your ability of ever again getting a commercial contract out of the kinds of organizations who want to build proprietary apps on your work by publishing under a permissive license like BSD or MIT.

> What would be strategies in case of Kickstarter campaign will fail?

Publish under GPL and don't listen to those who tell you that "open source" means anything other than offering your code to folks under an open source license. Just do whatever you're already doing right now, chuck code over the wall every now and then with an appropriate license attached, and ignore anyone who isn't paying you but insists that you owe them something.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#165

Sciter's author here. What would be strategies in case of Kickstarter campaign will fail? In principle I can publish it for free as it is now but I definitely don't want it to be one more of abandon-ware projects that are open sourcing as the end of life. In general OS development is significantly more costly (for the author) as closed source one - for many reasons. So OS development needs steady stream of funding. S…

You could found a consultancy for app development, where Sciter is a key part of your internal stack. Fund the tool with what is built by it directly

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first thought would be patreon or another of those services where people can sponsor monthly.

How realistic is the patreon schema? Say you would need to support 2-3 members team of highly professional software developers... Is patreon realistic for that?

I can think of one case where it works, the Octoprint software for managing 3D printers. The main developer Gina Häußge is fully financed by the Patreon. Though of course this is Germany, I think getting US developer salaries would be much less likely.

You probably need to be in the right niche for this model to work, I'd suspect it is quite hard to pull this off. But that goes for most ways to get paid for open source.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2. Browsers are for browsing - desktop and mobile application UI requires far more than that. Browsers are catching up of course but... Who would thought that the thing for reading pages will need access to your file system or make screenshots... #3. UI engine must have natural and effective means to use native code - to be embeddable and extendable by hosting application. In native app world you don't need WebAssem…

> #3. UI engine must have natural and effective means to use native code - to be embeddable and extendable by hosting application. It does! Most browsers are written in "native code" and use it to do layout. When you use an field on a website, you get a natively rendered UI widget with native OS behaviour!

"It does!" at some extent that is far from being adequate for native UI needs.

Consider that you need add ... element that will implement natively MS Word editing area. This will allow you to define MS Word editing chrome in HTML/CSS but keep core editing functionality native and effective.

Consider implementation of native element/behavior: https://github.com/c-smile/sciter-sdk/blob/master/include/be...

This is a demo of how native code can extend DOM - adding native "drivers" of app specific DOM elements. Yet there are other examples of native behaviors: https://github.com/c-smile/sciter-sdk/tree/master/include/be...

Essentially native behavior can do anything that built-in elements can do, even drawing on the same surface that the rest of DOM is using.

Good luck with achieving anything like that in browsers, or in Electron, or with WebAsm or whatever.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#168
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be surprising if the companies using Sciter (Norton, Avast, ESet, BitDefender) didn't have a copy of the source code with their commercial license, and the right to ship their own patched version with their software. If the project ever fizzled away they would probably just maintain it themselves, or migrate to Electron. Actually, it's not like these AV companies are known for their high quality product, so…

Why is sciter so popular with antivirus companies?

For many reasons.

Compact and manageable UI layer is the first. Full Sciter build for one platform/target is 50 seconds or less. Electron/Chromium builds are about tens of hours as I've been told.

Yet this https://sciter.com/from-skeuomorph-to-flat-ui-evolution-of-o...

is the same app that uses the same UI engine since 2007.

UI maintenance all these years is the matter of updating CSS declarations. Yet you always know that it will be HTML/CSS people that can do your UI in future.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first thought would be patreon or another of those services where people can sponsor monthly.

How realistic is the patreon schema? Say you would need to support 2-3 members team of highly professional software developers... Is patreon realistic for that?

I think patreon would be great for your case. You already have 99 backers on Kickstarter who seemed to pledge a hefty average. It would take longer to get the Kickstarter lump sum but it would also keep generating income. If you make one you’ll have at least one patron (me)

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, but we can check for feature support and adapt accordingly. We did it for the seen for years.

Right, but I'm getting the sense that people may have done it for years, but all that did was engender a desire to never have to worry about compatibility again

It really is the age old debate between static and dynamic libraries.
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