The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity • Hacker News Board

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#291

Post by vmception » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

542354234235 wrote: post #274

vmception wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why maybe you should actually understand Islam, what triggers radicalism, what doesn't , and how "The West" also gets that wrong, and how China navigates an exemption from Jihad. Al Queda was specifically formed to create a predictable response from the West that the West would never get out of. Bin Laden's purpose of Al Queda was to make a war with them so expensive that the US tears itself apart over budge…

It’s almost as if his direct experience fighting the USSR in Afghanistan in the 80s and seeing how costly the war was for them, in both blood and treasure, and how it was a massive drag on the Russian economy, gave him a good idea. But since the US understood this, and directly funded Afghan groups through the Pakistani ISI to prolong the war, we were well positioned to not fall into that same trap. And yet…

It's in Bin Laden's videos, he sent them all to US news sources.

I was really disappointed when I watched them and realized that the news at the time (early 2000s) had completely cut them and never gave Americans the message at all.

The Western response is "retaliation", the Jihad response is "excision of aggressor from Muslim lands", Bin Laden exploited that with a completely decentralized, self propogating, adhoc guerrilla military force, and told us exactly what he was doing, and we walked right into it because we have an insatiable lust for blood so you get instant support from the people, and its egged on by salivating defense companies. Such a meticulous manipulation... facepalm.

and all the solutions I can think of just leave a power vacuum.

Anyway, to anyone passing by, China's financial dealings are collaborative enough, and the Uyghars are not in another country so China's safe. China was dealing with internal attacks from Uyghars on occasion, and now wants to erase the concepts that those "freedom fighters" were fighting for. Its also working.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#292

Post by threatofrain » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #281

threatofrain wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the probity of those around you is relevant. It goes to moral credibility when you or anyone speaks.

I think that's bs. If it's not, then before anyone can do anything you need a complete list of every bad thing happening and you need to order it in importance and badness and then you need to get everyone to agree on it. That's a recipe to do nothing but argue. That's what we've been doing for 30 years.

> before anyone can do anything you need a complete list

But nobody works like that. People act on moral confidence, not certainty. If we had certainty, then would we need to worry about credibility?

> That's a recipe to do nothing but argue. That's what we've been doing for 30 years.

I'm making a description and not a prescription, so if you say we've been doing something 30 years, then you already agree to the description.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#293

Post by tptacek » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #169

rayiner wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd. As a brown immigrant Muslim looking person, not only do I feel safer in the US than I would in China, I feel safer here than in France. Americans aren’t frothing at the mouth to ban Islamic religious clothing while schoolgirls in France have to remove their headscarves.

> This is absurd. As a brown immigrant Muslim looking person, not only do I feel safer in the US than I would in China, I feel safer here than in France. Do muslim looking persons in muslim countries feel equally well protected from America? > Americans aren’t frothing at the mouth to ban Islamic religious clothing while schoolgirls in France have to remove their headscarves. That sounds like more progressive. Do wom…

The idea that Muslim women in general are wearing headscarves because their "fathers/spouses" would beat them otherwise is a slur, and has no place here.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#294

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #3

It stands to reason that had Nazi Germany not attacked its neighbors, the rest of the world would have happily stood by and watched them execute their own Jewish/undesirables population with nothing more than some strongly-worded letters and trade sanctions.

I mean, yeah. The world stood by and let the Rwandan genocide happen, and you could argue that we let North Korea continue on with its forced labor and re-education camps today, pushing back with nothing more than strongly worded letters and trade sanctions.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#295

Post by tupputuppu » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #242

Subsentient wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How dare you use the word "utilitarian" in such an atrocious context. I've been a "real" utilitarian for almost a decade (as much as is possible to be), and I consider China the single greatest threat to freedom and peace on the face of the planet. Can you seriously believe that China would not be far, far better off with a democratic regime? Yes, China has raised up their economy, but they've only done it for the sa…

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Here is a picture that shows china's growth and wellbeing (life satisfaction). Managing the affairs of nearly 1.5 billion people is quite an accomplishment. I like democracy, don't get me wrong -- but I think the Chinese government has demonstrated themselves to be rather benevolent, on the whole. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2017/04/Inc-vs-Happiness-...

What does the ethnic cleansing of Uighurs have to do with economic growth? You think imprisoning people in concentration camps accelerates poverty reduction?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#296

Post by dirtyid » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

giancarlostoro wrote: post #206

powerapple wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Iraqi is comparing US to Iraq. I don't understand why there is always a contest between US and China. US is a developed country, and China is a developing country. It is not a beauty contest. Also there does have to be only one winner. Maybe, just maybe, there is no need to mess up another country.

Genuine question: what is it that qualifies China as a developing nation? The last thing on my mind when I think of China is "its a developing nation." China seems to own quite an empire.

These labels aren't useful for extremely large / diverse countries.

Coastal China has per capita GDP comparable to Taiwan. Interior provinces is much poorer, with 600M living on 1000RMB/month or 2000USD/year, on the level of Haiti. In aggregate China is a middle income country with per capita GDP of Iraq.

The Chinese system harnesses this income disparity + 1.4 Billion people to concentrate talent, wealth and development systematically rival developed nations. That's just a factor of scale. Quantity has a quality of its own if properly coordinated, which is basically broad TLDR of Chinese history up to industrialization. I suppose people didn't think China could catch up this fast.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#297

Post by LordDragonfang » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #271

levosmetalo wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And which country was the first one to start dropping bombs on other sovereign countries without a UN mandate? If I remember correctly, it was not China. They never dropped a single bomb on any other country.

That's called a Whataboutism. It doesn't address nor make any point. Its a crude deflection. One countries atrocities are not an excuse for other to follow their suit

It's not whataboutism when GP is not-so-subtly accusing China of being the root cause of the problems with the UN. The point it that the problems run much deeper than that.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#298

Post by dang » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 7:21 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #169

rayiner wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd. As a brown immigrant Muslim looking person, not only do I feel safer in the US than I would in China, I feel safer here than in France. Americans aren’t frothing at the mouth to ban Islamic religious clothing while schoolgirls in France have to remove their headscarves.

> This is absurd. As a brown immigrant Muslim looking person, not only do I feel safer in the US than I would in China, I feel safer here than in France. Do muslim looking persons in muslim countries feel equally well protected from America? > Americans aren’t frothing at the mouth to ban Islamic religious clothing while schoolgirls in France have to remove their headscarves. That sounds like more progressive. Do wom…

This crosses the line into religious flamewar and that is not allowed here, so please don't.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#299

Post by ars » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 8:04 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #204

wil421 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you know what it was like in America if you’ve never even visited?

I read and watch.

So basically your knowledge of the United States comes from its least common situations?

Remember that normal everyday life is never reported. Only unusual and non-typical things are reported.

So what you're saying is your knowledge of the United States is exactly opposite of what normal life is actually like there.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#300

Post by scotty79 » Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 8:30 PM UTC

ars wrote: post #299

scotty79 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read and watch.

So basically your knowledge of the United States comes from its least common situations? Remember that normal everyday life is never reported. Only unusual and non-typical things are reported. So what you're saying is your knowledge of the United States is exactly opposite of what normal life is actually like there.

Normal everyday life can be seen in statistics like child mortality, obesity, health care coverage, percentage of prison populations, number of gun deaths, prevalence of lead paint and piping, education stats and so on and so on.

I know United States is large and varied country and for some people in some places it's wonderful, but I'm sure same can be said about China or most other countries.