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The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

economist.com

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Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#231

Post by Paradigma11 »

levosmetalo wrote: post #143
baybal2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of UN and UNSC is as a venue to talk about these things and negotiate solutions - it's not like it ever was an option to have an UN that can make binding decisions on the major powers, no major sovereign power would ever agree to that. You know, the original intent of UN was of an organisation to do exactly this. After the second world war, the determination was made that the no pill is too bitter to prev…

And which country was the first one to start dropping bombs on other sovereign countries without a UN mandate? If I remember correctly, it was not China. They never dropped a single bomb on any other country.

You sure they didn't in the Korea or Sino-Vietnamese War?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#232

Post by bilbo0s »

tsimionescu wrote: post #191
zdragnar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't China just get on to the human rights committee too? Edit: yes, the human rights council, joined by Russia and Cuba. What a time to be alive.

Cuba has a much better human rights record than Russia, China and the USA, at least as far as their impact on other countries goes. The presence of Saudi Arabia in the Human Rights council is a much worse travesty anyway, by any measure.

If we're going by who has the best records, then you open up a whole can of worms. I agree when you say that Cuba has a better record in recent decades than Russia, the US, and China. If you go back far enough though, even Cuba had violations. And if you go back even further (Batista), you're talking about out and out horrors.

Now of course, where does that stop? Because if we go back in US, Russian, and Chinese history the violations are out and out horrible as well. Some bordering on genocide. (I'm sure if you're a native American, you would say they were genocide.)

Point is, you can't always just throw the human rights violations of great powers into their faces all the time. The countries that are doing so well today in terms of respect for human rights, all had their problems in the past. They don't have problems today probably because they are not powers, let alone great powers. If we demand a spotless past, we'd end up with nothing but, like, eswatini or something. Politically speaking, you have to have the great powers on board.

Would it be better if these powers were not as openly hypocritical as they are? Yes, but that's just how the world works. A necessary evil in my opinion. The council would mean less than it does now if there was just eswatini or botswana or something sitting there saying, "You guys have violations."

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#233

Post by oxymoran »

powerapple wrote: post #144
pistoriusp wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-China (The government) is not Anti-Chinese (The people). I'm South African. I grew up in Apartheid and I'm white. It ended when I was 10. Am I a bad person? No. Are my parent's bad people? No. Were my Grandparent's bad people? No. The Apartheid Government of South Africa was terrible. Especially to black people, but also to white people who didn't toe the line. Sanctions were very effective.

The problem is most Chinese approves Chinese government, and why people from outside keep shouting 'you are not happy' to them.

How could you possibly know the feelings of most Chinese citizens when they aren’t allowed to express them?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#234

Post by free_rms »

deesep wrote: post #200
powerapple wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Iraqi is comparing US to Iraq. I don't understand why there is always a contest between US and China. US is a developed country, and China is a developing country. It is not a beauty contest. Also there does have to be only one winner. Maybe, just maybe, there is no need to mess up another country.

China is the second richest country in the world. It has the most billionaires, and has experienced steady economic growth for decades. It baffles me that people still classify them as a developing nation.

Now do per capita and income inequality.

Shanghai is modern. Huge parts of the country are developing.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#235

Post by boomboomsubban »

zpeti wrote: post #50
Miner49er wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US really much better than China? We do similar to black, Native American, and immigrant people. I'm not sure I want either winning in their current state.

The US has concentration camps for blacks, native americans and immigrants, where they reeducate you to follow a tyrannical political system? Are they tracked through a social credit system where you can't get a train out of your town if it's bad? Where journalists repeteadly disappear? Where a treaty with the UK is ripped up and a city is invaded? Yeah. Accurate.

>The US has concentration camps for blacks, native americans and immigrants, where they reeducate you to follow a tyrannical political system

While not concentration camps, the US still does have residential schools where they put Native American children into Christian foster homes and educate them to follow our political system in public schools. Plus the church makes millions doing it. Certainly better, but still pretty terrible.

> Where journalists repeteadly disappear? Where a treaty with the UK is ripped up and a city is invaded?

The "Collateral Murder" is video evidence of the US killing journalists during their illegal invasion of a nation. You can disagree with my evaluation of those events, but it's hard to see how we have the moral high ground here.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#236

Post by tombh »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #197
tombh wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China running the same plays from the playbook written by the Anglosphere war powers Absolutely. All the comments like yours are downvoted. The West doesn't need autocracy to maintain its propaganda, its own citizens do it for them. China is not innocent. But on what basis does the West have any moral authority to judge China's emulation of Western colonialism. I would argue very little. The West has made its bed a…

>> But on what basis does the West have any moral authority to judge China's emulation of Western colonialism. Our great-great grandfathers beat their wives, thus no one should be able to judge me for doing the same today. Is this your argument?

It was profoundly more than beating wives. The entire foundation of the West is based on genocides and mass theft that make the Uyghur crisis seem small. My argument is more along the lines of: our emotional reaction to Chinese colonial projects is a subconscious projection of our own unresolved acknowledgement of the price we paid for modernity.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#237

Post by DFHippie »

tombh wrote: post #216
DFHippie wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on what basis does the West have any moral authority to judge China's emulation of Western colonialism This is a counsel of despair and it is pure tribalism. No one in the West can condemn the actions of China the nation because the West has done analogous things in the past. So everyone in the West is guilty for everything anyone in the West has ever done. By this logic there is no basis for moral judgment ever an…

> So everyone in the West is guilty for everything anyone in the West has ever done Of course that's nonsensical and I agree with it. But I wonder what you think when it's positively framed? So everyone in the west can _benefit_ from everything anyone in the West has ever done? That statement seems much closer to being universally accepted. Our rights to benefit from the fruits of Western "progress"; medicine, civil…

Yes, I thought about that. "My neighbor of the same religion and complexion won a Nobel! I'm so smart!" Everyone is happy to put a finger on the scale for their own benefit. But this is different from everyone in the West benefitting from the telephone or whatever. They do! So does everyone in Japan. As for compound interest on historical plunder, that's another matter. I'm as American as can be (and as British in ancestry as you, I am sure). I do not believe I am responsible for the original crime. I am responsible for not acknowledging it or giving it back. But to a large extent that egg cannot be unscrambled.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#238

Post by oxymoran »

newen wrote: post #212
ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't satire. I knew I was gonna get a lot of flak. I'm sorry to have so many dissagree with me :(. I have no idea what the CPCs plans are. Much like I have no idea what my own goverments (UK) plans are. But what I do see is this kinda news creates a hatered, and that hatered finds it's ways into the culture at large, and I don't think that's a good thing. e: and yes, I honestly belive that in China things work…

To give you some context, there is a massive government sponsored anti-China propaganda campaign going on in the US in order to give pretext to a Cold War style ramping up of tensions, economic conflicts, military conflicts etc. because America sees China as an economic competitor now like it did the USSR. This article and the sentiments of so many in HN are simply the result of that campaign. Edit: It’s not a conspi…

Conspiracy theory

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#239

Post by gopty »

The world has enough Islamic countries. Most of them are not open, industrialized first world countries.

Where you have Islam and a non islamic population, you have trouble. Be it the Philippines, Armenia, Myanmar, nigeria, russia, ethiopia, you name it.

China is not a non-interacting gap country like most (all?) Islamic countries. And as a westerner living happily in China, I am actually glad that China does not accept violent, tribal behaviour in China. In fact, as someone who has worked with enforcement and militaries I find the Chinese police highly professional.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#240

Post by deesep »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #206
powerapple wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Iraqi is comparing US to Iraq. I don't understand why there is always a contest between US and China. US is a developed country, and China is a developing country. It is not a beauty contest. Also there does have to be only one winner. Maybe, just maybe, there is no need to mess up another country.

Genuine question: what is it that qualifies China as a developing nation? The last thing on my mind when I think of China is "its a developing nation." China seems to own quite an empire.

There is no proper framework to define a 'developed' or 'developing' country. At the WTO, individual countries are allowed to self-allocate themselves. Those in the 'developing' group then get preferential trade benefits. These trade benefits are the only reasons China holds tightly to the 'developing' country label.
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