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The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

economist.com

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Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#171

Post by Subsentient »

joelbluminator wrote: post #160
Subsentient wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we do not, because the crimes of the US are not equally severe and/or are historic and not actively occurring. There's a difference between systemic racism and state-sanctioned cultural genocide signed off on by the dictator himself.

Who determines they are not equally severe? How can we reliably estimate and compare the damage done in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan to what's happening in China?

There were plenty of disastrous wars, but clearly the US did not intend to commit genocide, and I very much doubt it did, in any war. The same cannot be said for China. Of course, there's the historic case of the native Americans, but again, that's not actively occurring.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#172

Post by DFHippie »

tombh wrote: post #131
ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna get a lot of flak for this, but I think there's a massive anti-China narrative on HN. I see so much talk that's based off of people's view from an entirely Western media-centred POV. There's so much more to what's going on. There's a lot of pot calling the kettle black too. There's a lot of good stuff in the TLS from a few weeks back. Han is the cultural race/ethnicity in mainland China. [0] It's about 92%…

> China running the same plays from the playbook written by the Anglosphere war powers Absolutely. All the comments like yours are downvoted. The West doesn't need autocracy to maintain its propaganda, its own citizens do it for them. China is not innocent. But on what basis does the West have any moral authority to judge China's emulation of Western colonialism. I would argue very little. The West has made its bed a…

> on what basis does the West have any moral authority to judge China's emulation of Western colonialism

This is a counsel of despair and it is pure tribalism. No one in the West can condemn the actions of China the nation because the West has done analogous things in the past. So everyone in the West is guilty for everything anyone in the West has ever done. By this logic there is no basis for moral judgment ever and every group is free to dominate any other group. Might makes right. It's lovely in this scenario to claim membership in a powerful group that can take everyone else's marbles.

No one believes this about their own group. "I can't judge my neighbor for murder because we're both white. His crime is my crime." People frequently believe this about other groups. "My Chinese neighbor is a horrible person because they are Han and the Han-dominated government in China is doing horrible things to Uighurs." This is obvious nonsense. Wrong is wrong whoever the judge. It isn't the West judging China but individual Westerners. Also individual Han Chinese. Maybe even individual Han Chinese responsible for abusing the Uighurs.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#173

Post by Synaesthesia »

Subsentient wrote: post #168
learnstats2 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to illustrate that this article is serving an anti-China narrative, which has been motivated over several years and decades by right-wing politicians looking for a palatable enemy to unite behind (replacing Russia in this role) China can and does do bad things, but why do we read about that more often and with more emphasis than Western countries doing bad things?

Why do we focus on China? Because they're usually doing worse things, and on larger scales, than the West.

They haven't committed crimes on the scale of the invasions of Vietnam and Iraq in the last 50 years.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#174

Post by dxdm »

scotty79 wrote: post #107
zpeti wrote: post #18

“Here's my strategy on the Cold War: we win, they lose.” ― Ronald Reagan I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that this strategy has to be adopted with China as well. They are out to win, to dominate the world, and they won't back down, and they will use any method to do it. And ask yourself if the world you see inside China is what you want spreading.

The world I see inside USA doesn't seem like something worth spreading either.

Maybe, but what's your argument here? That there's a zero-sum game of one or the other, and that nothing can be done to contain any nastiness? That all alternatives are equally bad? You seem to imply a lot, it would be helpful to actually know what you mean.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#175

Post by darkerside »

ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #145
Nevaeh wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History has shown that the CCP will oppress the Han chinese if they do not bow down to their ideology. "approximately 65,000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs between 2000 and 2008" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

Have you ever met a Falun Gong practitioner?

Have you ever met a Holocaust survivor?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#176

Post by asplake »

pizza234 wrote: post #27
webmobdev wrote: post #10

It's incredibly sad that the world is not doing anything about it. Even if half of the things they say are true - putting anyone in camps for sporting a beard or praying in public, forced prison labour, physical torture, separating new borns and kids from parents in camp, sending kids to brainwashing schools, sexual abuse, organ harvesting etc - it's enough to make anyone feel disgusted at this state of affairs. But…

What can the world realistically do? China right now has enormous power over the rest of the world (by means of economical dependency), and I don't see that decreasing. To be clear, I certainly support human rights, but I personally see the situation as so bad, that I'm worried about how China's influence will extend to the West.

Commit itself loudly, meaningfully, and practically to minimising that dependency

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#177

Post by joelbluminator »

Subsentient wrote: post #171
joelbluminator wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who determines they are not equally severe? How can we reliably estimate and compare the damage done in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan to what's happening in China?

There were plenty of disastrous wars, but clearly the US did not intend to commit genocide, and I very much doubt it did, in any war. The same cannot be said for China. Of course, there's the historic case of the native Americans, but again, that's not actively occurring.

Well, everbody thinks they're doing the right thing. U.S was saving Vietnam from communism and later was saving the world from Saddam's WMD or Afghanistans taliban. China is saving their country from civil disintegration and helps create a uniform culture for the greater good. See what I did there?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#178

Post by dalbasal »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #151
dalbasal wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN(SC) isn't and has never been a "just solution" or even idealistic in any way. It was and is a way to stop (ultimately nuclear) confrontation between members to prevent WWIII.It has been instrumental to this goal, and this is the actual purpose of the UN. The General Assembly is a nicety. At different points in time, any member could have had such charges like you make leveled at them. This doesn't mean crimes…

Of all the times in history that a nuclear war has been narrowly averted, I don’t remember the UN ever having anything to do with it.

How many time per decade does a border change in a post UN world. How many times in an average decade did borders change before the UN?

Reading this thread has made me depressed. I guess lessons have expiration dates. We're going to have to relearn this one.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#179

Post by luckylion »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #155
luckylion wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> resisting the heavy Han Chinese settlement that would lead to the Uighurs becoming a minority in their own province It surprises me that nativist anti-immigration demands are considered righteous in some regions and evil and backwards in others. I understand the general history like you do though, I don't disagree. Radical Uighur groups did help China make the case with their knife attacks on civilians to be painte…

> It surprises me that nativist anti-immigration demands are considered righteous in some regions and evil and backwards in others. Nativist anti-immigration demands in Europe or North America are generally criticized as hyperbole because immigration will not actually lead to demographic replacement in the near future, in spite of those activists’ claims. Furthermore, in Europe the immigrants invariably assimilate li…

> Nativist anti-immigration demands in Europe or North America are generally criticized as hyperbole because immigration will not actually lead to demographic replacement in the near future, in spite of those activists’ claims.

The US is steering towards Majority Minority, is it not?

> Furthermore, in Europe the immigrants invariably assimilate linguistically to their host country – by the second or third generation, the language of the old country is forgotten.

That would be great, but isn't the case.

> China has the numbers to change Xinjiang’s demographics, and almost none of those Han Chinese immigrants are learning Uighur and using it in public.

Absolutely. My point isn't that it's great what China is doing, it's just weird that "you need to assimilate, it's their province" is a weird take when that same stance is violently opposed in other circumstances.

I don't think it's necessary either, human rights don't need a justification of regional ownership. Even if you don't think that Han shouldn't be allowed to settle there, you can still be appalled by the things the Chinese government is doing.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#180

Post by [deleted] »

zdragnar wrote: post #24
goku99 wrote: post #12

I don't understand what's the point of UN when these things are happening in a permanent UNSC member country. This C has been causing nuisance to their neighbors all the time. They Debt-Trap poor nations and exploit them. From Mongols to India, every neighbor has a problem, they are probably most worst neighbor you could get. Recently it was in news with yet another conflict with India[1]. This needs to stop. Entire…

Didn't China just get on to the human rights committee too? Edit: yes, the human rights council, joined by Russia and Cuba. What a time to be alive.

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