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The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

economist.com

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Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#221

Post by DFHippie »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #125
Hokusai wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The future is scary if any sole country leads the world. Only cooperation and shared responsibility creates a viable future for humanity.

The present is already scary. The US have led the work without cooperation for quite a long time (remember the 2003 invasion of Iraq?).

Aside: Most Americans who voted voted against Bush in 2000, and he would have lost the election altogether if the votes in Florida had been properly tallied. Most Americans who voted voted against Trump in 2016. Trump might win in November as well but nobody, not even in Trump's camp, thinks he will win the majority of the popular vote.

This isn't quite on point, but all the collective guilt being slung about in these comments is problematic. I notice you use British collective plural -- "The US have". I don't know whether this is because you imagine the states collectively leading the world or the population of the states, but it suggests you assign collective blame.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#222

Post by vincvinc »

bloak wrote: post #139

Unfortunately, I don't think generating a load of anti-Chinese sentiment in Europe and North America is going to make the Chinese feel less threatened by the Uyghurs. Rather the reverse, I expect. So I'd recommend people express their support for the Uyghurs without, in effect, calling for a holy war against China.

I agree. On the other hand, how to put pressure (by, for example boycotting the upcoming Beijing Winter Olympics) without providing propaganda-fuel for the CCP to drive one more wedge between Chinese people and the rest of the world?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#223

Post by jiuahweruihawi »

coldtea wrote: post #164
jiuahweruihawi wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it also led to the fall of a tyrannical regime that murdered tens of millions and was every bit as sadistic and evil as Nazi Germany. So there's that.

Did it led to that? Because the "tyrannical regime" was progressively more open since the 60s, and it fell all by itself actually...

Well whether or not Reagan's strategy of "we win, they lose" was the cause, what's beyond dispute is that America won and the Soviets lost. To which I say, thank fucking God.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#224

Post by Miner49er »

jiuahweruihawi wrote: post #154
Miner49er wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US really much better than China? We do similar to black, Native American, and immigrant people. I'm not sure I want either winning in their current state.

The fact that you are able to make this claim online (even anonymously) without any fear for your personal safety instantly proves that your claim is false.

I actually do feel a little fear whenever I make a comment like this online. That someday it will come back to get me. The United States government could easily bring back Mcarthyism anytime and start rounding up people with the wrong political views.

It's clearly worse in China, but I do feel fear, even in the US.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#225

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

benlumen wrote: post #79
Miner49er wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US really much better than China? We do similar to black, Native American, and immigrant people. I'm not sure I want either winning in their current state.

This is an incredibly low-information perspective that's got to go. China is an authoritarian single-party state where citizens have no liberty, no justice, no recourse. It couldn't be more different to the US. The ongoing demoralization of the US like this is outright sister.

While I have no real clue about China, never been there, I don't believe that because:

[1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=china+highway+built+around+house&t...

and many more cases like

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate)#Nail_hou...

How is that possible at all with no liberty, no justice, no recourse ?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#226

Post by wombatmobile »

sushicalculus wrote: post #109
wombatmobile wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now is nothing special. Australia commenced a two-year term as a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council on On 1 January 2013. Australia–East Timor spying scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-East_Timor_spying_sc... Then on 16 October 2017, in New York, the United Nations General Assembly elected Australia to serve on the Human Rights Council (HRC) for the 2018-20 term. Witness K and the 'outrageou…

To be frank, that spy scandal is not in the same genre of the other abuses that are being discussed by OP/GP and others. And it looks like the treaty was renegotiated (Australia was shamed) so I’m not sure why you dug this example up > In 2018, the parties signed a new agreement which gave 80% of the profits to East Timor and 20% to Australia.

> To be frank, that spy scandal is not in the same genre of the other abuses that are being discussed by OP/GP and others.

I don't mind if you are frank, sushicalculus, in fact I welcome it, so long as you are informed.

In the case of East Timor, you should know that Australia was happy to stand by while Indonesia treated the East Timorese similarly to how China treats the Uyghyrs. Australia only acted after the United States lead, and then did its best to weaken the fledgling East Timor government by cheating it out of oil rights.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog...

On the subject of Australian complicity "in the same genre of the other abuses that are being discussed by OP/GP and others", do you know what is happening in West Papua?

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/west-papua-end-australi...

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#227

Post by marvin »

preommr wrote: post #103
zpeti wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the freeing of half of Europe from tyranny. The reduction in threat of nuclear annihilation of the world. The opening up of huge amounts of the world to free trade and prosperity.

It's easy to say in hindsight, but Reagan's attitude could easily have escalated the cold war and caused a nuclear attack. The entire debacle during the cold war was less strong and smart political leaders and more pure luck. We now know that there were people that, if they had followed protocol, would have taken that extra step to nuclear deployment. The only reason they didn't is sheer, dumb luck. If the lessons we…

Your points on nuclear brinkmanship are good. It's an absolutely horrible prospect.

But what do you suggest as an alternative? Standing by and doing nothing is certainly not my preferred option. If the premise is that the export of tyranny must be stopped, what should be done?

Reducing the problem to its absurd conclusion: ceding liberties because the risk of war is too great, is not an acceptable choice. Hopefully today's reality will not be that extreme, but that's ultimately where we'll end up.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#228

Post by coldtea »

oa335 wrote: post #219
coldtea wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is absurd. As a brown immigrant Muslim looking person, not only do I feel safer in the US than I would in China, I feel safer here than in France. Do muslim looking persons in muslim countries feel equally well protected from America? > Americans aren’t frothing at the mouth to ban Islamic religious clothing while schoolgirls in France have to remove their headscarves. That sounds like more progressive. Do wom…

Every Muslim woman I know (hundreds) who wear hijab wear it without the threat of violence from their family. It's extremely common amongst the people I know for some women in the family to wear hijab and some to not. It's not as big of a deal as non Muslims seem to think, and it's frankly offensive that you assume that people would only make that choice due to threats of violence.

>Every Muslim woman I know (hundreds) who wear hijab wear it without the threat of violence from their family

You'd be surprised. Plus, it's not like something they'll admit openly.

Second, there's also internalized violence/indoctrination, from a young age.

There is of course voluntary choice too -- even western women who have converted and adopted wearing it (in which case there's no youthful indoctrination). But for tons of muslim women in Europe, which see their non-muslim friends not having to wear any, it's imposed by their families and communities.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#229

Post by Synaesthesia »

gedy wrote: post #195
Synaesthesia wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven't committed crimes on the scale of the invasions of Vietnam and Iraq in the last 50 years.

They did physically invade Vietnam in 1979, whereas the US got involved on one side of a civil war, and never invaded North or South Vietnam. Great Leap Forward induced famines also killed tens of millions of people.

The US simply invaded Vietnam. It was not the case of "getting involved in a civil war". The Chinese invasion was miniscule in comparison.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#230

Post by AmericanChopper »

dalbasal wrote: post #178
AmericanChopper wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the times in history that a nuclear war has been narrowly averted, I don’t remember the UN ever having anything to do with it.

How many time per decade does a border change in a post UN world. How many times in an average decade did borders change before the UN? Reading this thread has made me depressed. I guess lessons have expiration dates. We're going to have to relearn this one.

I don't think border changes are a good measure of conflict. Iraq's border hasn't changed since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and it's had plenty of well known conflict since then.

> I guess lessons have expiration dates. We're going to have to relearn this one.

Which lesson are you talking about? The lessons we should have learned after the League of Nations collapsed?

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