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I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

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Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#121
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is this actually news to people? Good question. The thing that was news to me is that it's happening on very large blogs, not random sites and that it's being sold to and used by well-known startups. Like you, I expect sockpuppet accounts and random linkbuilding garbage, just not at this scale or with this much distribution.

Welcome to the world of black hat services => https://www.blackhatworld.com/forums/seo-packages.206/

The thing to note there is that despite being on a "black hat" website, most of those ads are from marketing or SEO companies linking to their own legitimate company websites. It's clear most of them just see this as how internet marketing is done.

I also note that as a not logged in user, the Twitter just shows me "related tweets" from people actually hiring or offering to sell social media content.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a good idea to present stronger evidence before saying HN is astroturfable. It has one of the strongest anti astroturf systems I’ve seen, primarily because of how HN works (which, sadly, is hard to discuss openly). I believe you about Reddit, but it’s going to be quite hard to buy your way into HN, no matter how cleverly you do it. I’m not saying it’s impossible. But it’s so easy to believe, and so hard t…

I've never thought HN was impartial. The fact that discussing astroturfing is against the rules was highly suspect. I consider this a highly censored website with particular objectives, but a decent userbase.

The rule is against insinuating astroturfing without evidence. The alternative is threads full of pointless insinuation about astroturfing—the favorite junk pastime of internet forums. HN doesn't have "particular objectives", it has one objective: to gratify intellectual curiosity, and that guideline is obviously integral to this.

That doesn't make actual astroturfing ok. We spend many hours combating it and banning accounts and sites that do it, including the ones that Troy's reporting on here. There's just a huge difference between it-really-happening and pointless-toxic-speculation. The difference is evidence, and that's what we require.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#124

The Twitter thread has a lot more. There's a person or firm who is doing black-hat content marketing at scale. They either approach freelance bloggers to write articles about their clients (to be submitted to Medium-hosted and similar blogs as if written by unaffiliated users), or create Medium profiles for fake names and write the posts themselves. Posts have appeared in Better Programming, DEV.to, FAUN, freeCodeCam…

Aside from the content itself, I’ve noticed the commenting and voting patterns on Reddit for articles about AccessiBe are suspicious. I always assumed they had “help”. It’s a shame social media doesn't have a “this looks suspicious but I have no direct evidence” report button. I expect it’s very easy in a lot of cases to determine abuse when you have access to internal data.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#125
post #44
post #18

I don't endorse this behavior at all but can it really be said to be black-hat? imho seems more gray to me. From what I understand, content _is_ being generated and there are attempts to boost the SEO, so they're providing a service and it's not outright theft. At worst it just sounds like poor practice and gaming the system. They're not acting maliciously, illegally, and/or destructively, which is how I've always de…

> They're not acting maliciously, illegally, and/or destructively, which is how I've always defined black-hat. Am I missing something? It probably is illegal if they aren't disclosing a paid relationship: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/dis...

Not really, according to their page, disclosure is a best practice, but doing otherwise isn't inherently illegal. Their own guide [0] begins by talking about adhering to their guidelines as "voluntary compliance", and that a failure to do so would require their investigation into the specifics to determine if it was a violation of law: It is not automatically a violation.

[0] https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/press-re...

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#126
post #38

The Twitter thread has a lot more. There's a person or firm who is doing black-hat content marketing at scale. They either approach freelance bloggers to write articles about their clients (to be submitted to Medium-hosted and similar blogs as if written by unaffiliated users), or create Medium profiles for fake names and write the posts themselves. Posts have appeared in Better Programming, DEV.to, FAUN, freeCodeCam…

> There's a person or firm who is doing black-hat content marketing at scale. No!!! You don't say!

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#127

Why is this being referred to as black hat? Everyone does this. You think the Heroku blog posts are written by Heroku employees? It’s really just online ghost writing. I don’t see how this is a big deal.

I was a Heroku employee until recently. I know the people who work on those blog posts, and I tried to contribute one myself.

To my knowledge, employees absolutely do work on those; articles are edited and go through several rounds of review, but they aren't ghost written. Even the ones written by the management team seem entirely congruous with their level of product knowledge.

There are external people (usually former Herokai) who contribute to the Heroku blog; their names / positions are listed on the byline of the article.

I wouldn't see the point of having a non-employee writing the canonical description of a new feature; they wouldn't have the context necessary to do the best job.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#128

"I didn't know that black-hat content marketing existed" (from the Twitter thread) I haven't laughed so hard in months :))) I've talked with over 150 founders (I'm running a website that deals with acquisition channels & user growth [1]) and this is like uncovering 0.01% of what's going on out there. I became friends with some of these founders, and some of them admitted that a significant part of their growth was "p…

> I haven't laughed so hard in months :)))

Please don't be a jerk in HN comments. We're trying for a different quality of discussion here. The rest of your comment would be just fine without that swipe.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#129
post #31

Is this actually news to people? This has been happening for decades. The purpose is largely for SEO / sometimes for actual traffic. Just go google "private blog networks" (pbn) or "link farm".

This very site denies it happens even though it is often quite obvious. > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If you mention this kind of thing at all, dang will pop in and w…

That's no denial. That guideline specifically asks people to notify us so we can investigate. We do that every time anyone asks. I've personally spent hundreds (probably thousands) of hours investigating such things, have banned many accounts and sites for it, and have put tons of effort into writing code to combat it. We take it seriously. We just need some evidence. Surely you don't think we should lower the bar below that?

If you don't believe me, ask troydavis, who went to all the trouble of investigating the above case and writing the OP, whether we take evidence seriously and ban accounts and sites based on it. Or any of the countless other HN users who spot things and ask us to look into them. They're the ones who actually care enough about the community to help protect it.

The problem is that there's another side of the coin: most of the cheap insinuations of astroturfing, shilling, foreign-agenting, spying, botting, and all the rest of it—where by "most" I mean the vast majority—are pulled (begging your pardon) purely out of the insinuator's ass. Internet users just love to make this stuff up as a cheap way of throwing shade on whatever they dislike. That's the dross the guidelines ask HN users to keep out of the threads. This is important because gratuitously accusing others of dishonesty is a fast track to poisoning community, and it's 1000x easier to generate such accusations than it is to answer them.

> This is because these sites realize the exact opposite. That the percentage of this stuff is absolutely massive and they are terrified what will happen if the public finds out how common it is.

Here is something I can answer definitively—you're talking about what's going on in my mind and I think I can speak with some authority about that. No, that is not what's happening. What's happening is that I worry about the integrity of the community on two sides: protecting it from actual abuse and manipulation on the one hand, and protecting it from toxic fantasy bullshit on the other.

Re: I found black-hat content marketers: sockpuppet bloggers, fake Reddit/HN accts

#130
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have upvoted you in hopes that you will provide a link to some of the posts you suspect were generated by a GAN

It's prolific. If you read comments you will have seen it. Question is why only one person has called it ( I can see ) It's not against written HN rules, bots are not allowed in unwritten rules, but is it a bot bot? What more interesting is it's not a ring ( I assume it's upvoted by normal users) They will be hard to detect. This bot could just calm down and fly under the radar and use upvoting and downvoting to cont…

One of the main reasons I read hacker news is the comments. To me they make this site one of the great wonders of the Internet world. Would you mind linking to a few of them that you regard as non-human generated?
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