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Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

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Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#141

Post by ClumsyPilot »

jnwatson wrote: post #106
pfhorge wrote: post #28

I built my current house recently, and our builder used a prefab factory in the region for some of the construction. I would _never_ do it again. The process has all the pitfalls of the waterfall software development model, but at the end you have to live in the failed project! It took months for the factory to do their pre-build engineering, and that's after they started the process using plans from my architect. Th…

A coworker had a similar story with his prefab. After it was delivered (and it comes delivered with sheetrock walls, electrical, and subfloor), my coworker noticed that the the factory forgot a step: the plumbing. The builder had to rip out lots of the sheetrock and install plumbing. Lots of mistakes occur while building a house. The difference is that when the workers are already in the field, it is generally quite…

Does the factory just wash their hands of it and keep thr money? Is there no accountability ?

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#143

Post by jdhn »

aidenn0 wrote: post #101
bluGill wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a shortage of carpenters. There is a shortage willing to work for the wages offered. I've done carpentry work in the past, offer enough money and I'll leave my tech job. I'm not the only one who could do carpentry for the right price.

Any skilled job that can be done poorly with little training becomes a bit of a lemon market. I hate painting. I'm also a terrible painter. However, I've given up on ever hiring painters. Every professional painter I've used has either prepped the surface improperly, or put the coats on too thick, to the point where I rub paint off if I brush up against the wall. I'm willing to pay more for better work, but I can't e…

> or put the coats on too thick, to the point where I rub paint off if I brush up against the wall

How many coats are they putting on the wall, 5? I've never heard of paint rubbing off because there's too much of it.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#144

Post by tw04 »

seibelj wrote: post #127
tw04 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see you ALSO failed to explain what the replacement jobs for these highly skilled, well-paid employees will be. Horse tradesman became car dealerships. Elevator operator was never a skilled position in the first place. The internet has actually created a massive crisis in the western world that we're just now starting to realize - local newspapers going out of business is HORRIBLE for a functioning democracy, and n…

What’s better - everyone who lost their jobs picks a new career and retrains doing something new that is valued by society, or the government subsidizes unvalued industries that no one wants just so people never experience any pain? I’m sympathetic that government can help those who lose jobs. My preference is straight-up cash transfers so they can pick their own schools and move to where jobs are, rather than a gove…

You keep downvoting me, but you’ve yet to explain where these jobs are coming from. The jobs Detroit lost didn’t shift, they were just lost forever. The people who held them now work minimum wage jobs or live off welfare. What are the electricians and plumbers doing instead? You can keep saying people will just retrain and do something else but that’s about as useful as Trump saying he’ll bring manufacturing jobs back to the US without any plan. The end result is a lot of nothing.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#145

Post by oh_sigh »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #139
oh_sigh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are kit homes, not prefab homes.

The article is in the Wikipedia category "Prefabricated Homes" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Prefabricated_houses This article, from a builder, indicates that Sears homes are considered prefabricated by some people in the industry: https://www.protohomes.com/blog/prefab-vs-modular-manufactur... What is your differentiation between kit homes and prefabricated homes?

I saw that wikipedia listed them as prefab, but I think it is incorrect.

Kit home: Everything you need to build a house is in this box. Just add labor. Sort of like buying a lego kit that you know has all the pieces to build a Millenium Falcon out of.

Pre-fab: Important/time-consuming elements are constructed off-site and transported in a (nearly) ready to assemble state to the site. Sort of like having the Lego factory assemble the 7 major parts of the Millenium Falcon, and sending those to you so you can just connect them to each other to have the final product.

As I understand it, the Sears homes were kit homes by those definitions, not prefab. E.g. you would receive a bunch of 2x4s in a railroad car, not a ready-built wall you could just raise into place. Kit homes can also be pre-fab homes, but I don't think the terms are interchangeable and not all kit homes are pre-fab.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#146

Post by someguydave »

ThatGeoGuy wrote: post #112
seibelj wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fallacy - The Fallacy - that is always made by those who don’t understand economics. Why did we build the car when it put all of the horse tradesmen out of business? Why do we use elevator buttons and put the doormen out of a job? Why did we create the Internet when perfectly good newspaper printers could pass information to us? You are making an age-old argument that we need to reduce productivity in ord…

I think your example isn't completely off the mark, but I do think the article itself actually answers this: there is a shortage in trade labour in the non-commercial construction sector in (North) America. We are also at a cross-roads with regards to having a housing crisis. There are many places now (Bay Area, Boulder) where housing is skyrocketing not because the value is naturally increasing, but is instead being…

The "housing crisis" is all about regulatory capture of local zoning laws and local oligopolies over development. None of that has anything to do with construction efficiency, which is already using "prefab" in the sense that the stud walls and roof trusses are already prefabbed offsite. Not to mention non-commercial construction tends to employ a large illegal immigrant labor population, which tends to reduce relative wages.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#147

Post by samplatt »

pfhorge wrote: post #65
potiuper wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not sue for breach of contract / design?

We had a frank conversation with the builder about costs, as well as what was and wasn't worth fighting over. Some items were able to be repaired without impacting the budget by subcontractors that were already coming in to do other things. Other things we didn't care enough about to make a fuss over (like the roof line not matching up right on the back side of the house, where no one will ever notice). Some things w…

>We were very aware that big projects, be they software or home construction, don't ever go perfectly

Most large projects have some central features/processes that are by their very nature both very expensive and very complicated.

The entire prefab industry is built around minimising those things - but then something ELSE becomes the most expensive/complicated thing. You then have a situation where if you're seen as a bottleneck, holding up the expensive/complicated thing, then the total cost of the project will balloon.

Many prefab companies know this and are happy to sell modules with little QA work done, because it's unlikely that there will be serious repercussions. Once you accept the work then it'll be too hard for your legal team to fight for (or at least, not financially worth it).

I'm not saying that prefab companies are ethically bankrupt, but it IS an environment that promotes this method of doing business. I've been in construction for mining/oil&gas companies, on both sides of this situation, quite a few times. The amount of shoddy work you're willing to accept is quite terrifying once the cost for re-work gets into nine and ten digits.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#149

Post by dudus »

seibelj wrote: post #103
tw04 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One big area where modular prefab can potentially make a difference is by reducing the need for skilled tradesmen, particularly electricians, plumbers and HVAC techs. To what end? As a country we're already struggling to create enough middle-class jobs and you're suggesting we try to gut another whole sector. So that owners/executives of prefab factories can pocket the money? If you think it's going to reduce cost…

This is the fallacy - The Fallacy - that is always made by those who don’t understand economics. Why did we build the car when it put all of the horse tradesmen out of business? Why do we use elevator buttons and put the doormen out of a job? Why did we create the Internet when perfectly good newspaper printers could pass information to us? You are making an age-old argument that we need to reduce productivity in ord…

There was a story once told by Eric Schmidt that while on a trip to China he was touring a bridge construction and no heavy machinery was being used, the Chinese officials were pointing it out as something positive because it meant more people worked at the site and it generated more jobs.

Eric said they should have given the workers spoons if that was the goal, which caused a couple laughs that were met with anxious stares by local officials.

Re: Why hasn't prefab construction taken over?

#150

Post by CyberDildonics »

tw04 wrote: post #144
seibelj wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s better - everyone who lost their jobs picks a new career and retrains doing something new that is valued by society, or the government subsidizes unvalued industries that no one wants just so people never experience any pain? I’m sympathetic that government can help those who lose jobs. My preference is straight-up cash transfers so they can pick their own schools and move to where jobs are, rather than a gove…

You keep downvoting me, but you’ve yet to explain where these jobs are coming from. The jobs Detroit lost didn’t shift, they were just lost forever. The people who held them now work minimum wage jobs or live off welfare. What are the electricians and plumbers doing instead? You can keep saying people will just retrain and do something else but that’s about as useful as Trump saying he’ll bring manufacturing jobs bac…

> The people who held them now work minimum wage jobs or live off welfare.

You might want to provide a source for that one, there is still a huge amount of car industry expertise there including robotics, electric car engineering and thousands of support companies that feed the main companies.

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