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Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

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Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#191

Post by throwaway0a5e »

leetcrew wrote: post #152
yeetawayhn wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the "developed countries" dogwhistle, which usually means rich and white nations.

is there a better way of describing the group of countries where it is unlikely to encounter criminals with lmgs mounted to pickup trucks?

"first and second world" does a pretty good job covering it since there's plenty of nations that are formerly in the USSR's sphere of influence that aren't exactly rich but don't have to worry about cartel type violence.

Pretty much nobody likes to think that way though because the majority of the time "developed nations" are brought up it's in the context of how the US should be more like western Europe and it's usually ideologically convenient to leave Eastern Europe out of those kinds of comparisons.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#192

Post by [deleted] »

thdrdt wrote: post #115

Jocko Willing was asked about the issues with the police (in the US). His response was very insightful. He observed that most problems boiled down to lack of training. For an untrained cop an arrest can be very stressful. This then can result in using way too much force. I believe he also mentions this in the Joe Rogan podcast: https://youtu.be/iUhdc1GAddk

[deleted]

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#193

Post by ceejayoz »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #177
slg wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout is the catalyst for all of this. Police were heavily outgunned. And yet the only two people who died were the two bank robbers. It sounds like the police were able to eventually take control of the situation even while heavily outgunned. So does adding more firepower on the side of police actually provide more safety when this is an example of the worst case sc…

That was two guys on foot whose objective was only to escape. There are many worse scenarios than that.

> There are many worse scenarios than that.

Then why aren't they the "here's why we need an APC" argument? Or are they largely theoretical?

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#195

Post by justinclift »

tomschlick wrote: post #108
Communitivity wrote: post #34

We should be careful to draw a causal relationship here. It might not be that getting the military equipment causes police to be more aggressive and therefore have more killings. It might instead be that the more aggressive police departments are the ones that more seek to purchase military equipment, and the more aggressive police are the ones with more killings. I tend to think that's the case. Regardless, there is…

> Regardless, there is no need, ever, for police to have the automatic weapons, APCs, and "non-lethal" weapons they are buying from the military. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout is the catalyst for all of this. Police were heavily outgunned. The FBI would take hours to get there as FBI tactical teams are not in most cities and are not on call like normal SWAT teams are. APCs are purely defensiv…

> APCs are purely defensive.

Many APC's seem to have significantly powerful weaponry, compared to civilian/infantry weapons anyway:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_personnel_carrier

  In Western nations, APCs are frequently armed with the .50 
  calibre M2 Browning machine gun, 7.62mm FN MAG, or 40mm Mk 
  19 grenade launcher. In former Eastern bloc nations, the
  KPV, PKT and NSV machine guns are common options.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#196

Post by throwaway0a5e »

matwood wrote: post #69
nojokes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or departments with more military gear are in more risky areas where the use of force is more likely. I could not read the article because it is blocked for me.

> Or departments with more military gear are in more risky areas where the use of force is more likely. Maybe. I know anecdotally where I live has very little violent crime, and the police department is fully militarized with mraps and the like.

Bored police departments spend their money on toys.

Busy police departments spend their money hiring more cops so that they aren't so over worked.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#197

Post by Gibbon1 »

tomschlick wrote: post #108
Communitivity wrote: post #34

We should be careful to draw a causal relationship here. It might not be that getting the military equipment causes police to be more aggressive and therefore have more killings. It might instead be that the more aggressive police departments are the ones that more seek to purchase military equipment, and the more aggressive police are the ones with more killings. I tend to think that's the case. Regardless, there is…

> Regardless, there is no need, ever, for police to have the automatic weapons, APCs, and "non-lethal" weapons they are buying from the military. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout is the catalyst for all of this. Police were heavily outgunned. The FBI would take hours to get there as FBI tactical teams are not in most cities and are not on call like normal SWAT teams are. APCs are purely defensiv…

Notable though your using as evidence a law enforcement action that rates it's own Wikipedia entry.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#198

Post by bigbubba »

ceejayoz wrote: post #193
erik_seaberg wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was two guys on foot whose objective was only to escape. There are many worse scenarios than that.

> There are many worse scenarios than that. Then why aren't they the "here's why we need an APC" argument? Or are they largely theoretical?

I think most are a third option; not theoretical, but neither occurring in America. Consider something like the 2008 Mumbai attacks in which 10 men with rifles and explosives terrorized an entire city causing hundreds of casualties. Is there any particular reason to think such a thing couldn't happen in America, where rifles and explosives aren't hard to get?

Against that sort of threat, I think the police having a few armored vehicles makes sense.

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#199

Post by mixedCase »

watwut wrote: post #172
mixedCase wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does "protect and serve" not include removing dangerous, violent criminals from society?. To do so you need efficient weaponry and tactics that differ from conventional warfare. Does every police officer need to be equipped with such firepower? No, but police forces around the world facing these threats tend to have an intermediate (or more) group for dealing with threats that fall between petty thievery and terr…

Are you taking about actual real need in cities or a fantasy? It sounds flippant, but other counties don't need such ammo. The murder clearance rates are low, corruption seem to be persistent problem and actual police work does not actually seem to involve attacking actual super armed gangs.

Of course I'm talking about an actual real need in cities, it's bewildering to me someone can't even see it as obvious.

What country do you live in where there's no need for SWAT-like teams or a straight-up Gendarmerie?

Re: Police killings more likely in agencies that get military gear, data shows

#200

Post by 13415 »

Symmetry wrote: post #73
Communitivity wrote: post #34

We should be careful to draw a causal relationship here. It might not be that getting the military equipment causes police to be more aggressive and therefore have more killings. It might instead be that the more aggressive police departments are the ones that more seek to purchase military equipment, and the more aggressive police are the ones with more killings. I tend to think that's the case. Regardless, there is…

Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it being causal though I could make a plausible story that police departments that put dangerous looking military equipment in their recruitment videos tend to attract the wrong sort of people.

For a start, they should probably train police for two to four years like in other countries, instead of just a few months.
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