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Abolish the Cash Bail System

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Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#221

Post by vikasg »

specialist wrote: post #74

Someones, somewheres has done a better job of handling the accused pre-trial. Start there. Give me a name. Show me a role model to emulate. Then tell me how we get from here to there. But even better, just tell me what you want. Give me action steps, some talking points. Because you had me at "Hello." I really don't need a PhD thesis relitigating western philosophy since Plato. (Ditto each and every other progressive…

How is this comment that adds zero value considered "civil"?

Oh, right. Because it fits right in with the bullshit reflexive contrarianism around here.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#222

Post by matthewdgreen »

samatman wrote: post #123
krsdcbl wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't really see the pro side. Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. Assuming the accused is innocent and financially unable to pay for bail, they'll end up in jail without ever having committed a crime. Like so much else in the US, it's showi…

> Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. I don't support cash bail, personally, but it's worth noting that some amount of the bail money can be converted to a bounty for the apprehension of those of the accused who go on to skip trial.

Using private companies for law enforcement purposes, as opposed to using accountable public employees, seems like a completely unnecessary idea. It does create a powerful lobbying industry, which makes it even harder to reform.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#223

Post by koolba »

grumple wrote: post #169
dragonwriter wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while…

I only skimmed that page you linked, because I was looking for the bit that mentions that people can spend years in jail awaiting trial. We’ve had more than a few stories of this happening at Rikers island, only for charges to be dropped altogether. Cash bail and pretrial jail time exist to force quick plea bargains and criminal records on poor people. There’s not really justification for it. If you aren’t suspected…

> Cash bail and pretrial jail time exist to force quick plea bargains and criminal records on poor people. There’s not really justification for it. If you aren’t suspected of a serious violent crime or other crimes against people (rather than property), you shouldn’t be in jail.

This sounds fine in theory but in practice it leads to repeated infractions just shy of the incarceration limit.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-prop-47-shoplifting-th...

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-subway-men...

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#224

Post by arbitrage »

koolba wrote: post #223
grumple wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only skimmed that page you linked, because I was looking for the bit that mentions that people can spend years in jail awaiting trial. We’ve had more than a few stories of this happening at Rikers island, only for charges to be dropped altogether. Cash bail and pretrial jail time exist to force quick plea bargains and criminal records on poor people. There’s not really justification for it. If you aren’t suspected…

> Cash bail and pretrial jail time exist to force quick plea bargains and criminal records on poor people. There’s not really justification for it. If you aren’t suspected of a serious violent crime or other crimes against people (rather than property), you shouldn’t be in jail. This sounds fine in theory but in practice it leads to repeated infractions just shy of the incarceration limit. https://www.foxnews.com/us/…

Wow, both Fox News and the Daily News as reference .... LOL. Thanks for the warning, bucko.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#225

Post by jstanley »

abstractbarista wrote: post #206
jstanley wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but you can't really argue your way around: > This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

I'm rather OK with that.

Why?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#226

Post by Broken_Hippo »

sokoloff wrote: post #214
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly what it means: Sometimes, the courts won't allow you to just post bail, but force you to pay a bondsman. There is no choice. (My brother had this stipulation when he was 17). And it isn't that you can pay for them out of your pocked. You would have had to go to a business, pay them, and they pay the courts.

The specific question is “can you be his bondsman as I was for my colleague?”

No.

You'd have to go to a 3rd party that is licensed by the state. You can usually find the businesses around courthouses or jails. They are often open 24 hours a day and fairly brightly lit.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#227

Post by ldoughty »

jstanley wrote: post #144
dragonwriter wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while…

OK, but you can't really argue your way around: > This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law

If you take a drunk driver to jail to wait out the night.. or a teen caught in a liquor store with a broken window at 3am... Or you pick up a domestic abuser and take them to jail to get them away from their victim while collecting evidence and statements...

Those are all people that are presumed innocent under the law... They may spend only minutes or hours in jail as police gather and verify their information... Run their prints to see if their given name is false and their a criminal with a warrant for their arrest... Etc....

So the commenter saying the stats might be misleading is very accurate ... Jails have revolving doors, and that's probably a good thing. It would also be a good thing to eliminate cash bond, without changing jails otherwise -- because jails serve a very real and practical benefit to society for less-than-a-day holding off individuals while their identity is verified and their information/case is reviewed to determine if a bond of any kind will be even offered.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#228

Post by PascLeRasc »

specialist wrote: post #74

Someones, somewheres has done a better job of handling the accused pre-trial. Start there. Give me a name. Show me a role model to emulate. Then tell me how we get from here to there. But even better, just tell me what you want. Give me action steps, some talking points. Because you had me at "Hello." I really don't need a PhD thesis relitigating western philosophy since Plato. (Ditto each and every other progressive…

Countries like Germany and Iceland, and some areas of the US like Washington DC, just release people freely on $0 bail, and get a pretty high (88-94% from different articles) number of people showing up to court through community jail support groups helping people understand the legal process and recover from being held in a cage.

If you want a place where you can help, look up mutual aid bail funds for your city. There’s probably one and they’re always looking for volunteers or donations.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#229

Post by hospadar »

Lots of speculation in the comments is answered by the article itself:

- There's little/no evidence that cash bail increases the rate at which people show up for trial

- People are (shocker) better able to defend their innocence when they haven't been rotting in jail pre-trial

- People are less likely to commit other crimes before trial if they have a shorter stay in jail

- Recidivism rates are lower when people spend less time in jail

GREAT info about all things pretrial detention (and really all things prison) from the prison policy initiative: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/research/pretrial_detention/

Personal bias disclosure: I believe that imprisonment of any kind is incredibly cruel/counterproductive and that we as a society should prioritize getting as many people out of jail as possible. Justice is complex and hard and it won't be easy but I'd rather live in a world where people are seldom locked up, with no one loosing their right to vote [because of felony convictions, or for any other reason], and no one being afraid of the government that's supposed to be by/for/and of them.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#230

Post by 0xBA5ED »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #153
0xBA5ED wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. >Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking children, when we can do these other things that don't criminalize poverty while having less disruption of life? Keep in mind, it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. If the…

But it is easy to get thrown in jail. This is especially true if your skin isn't white enough: How many stories do you hear of folks being in jail for having the description, "Tall black male?". You act like everyone can avoid all things: Have you never met anyone put in jail for not paying child support when they don't have a job... in part, because they were put in jail for not paying child support? Or... you can l…

>But it is easy to get thrown in jail. This is especially true if your skin isn't white enough: How many stories do you hear of folks being in jail for having the description, "Tall black male?".

I'm sorry to break your narrative, but this is NOT true in my experience at all. 99.999999% of the time, if you end up in jail, you knowingly engaged in questionable activity or associated yourself with criminal deviants. Doesn't matter what your skin color is despite the imbalanced frequency of reporting in the US.

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