Abolish the Cash Bail System • Hacker News Board

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#121

Post by krsdcbl » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:08 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #25

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I honestly don't really see the pro side.

Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial.

Assuming the accused is innocent and financially unable to pay for bail, they'll end up in jail without ever having committed a crime.

Like so much else in the US, it's showing heavy signs of a plutocraty, where money even decides if you'll be subject to the judiciary system or not. In almost any sane judiciary system I know there will be a pre-trial hearing to determine the likeliness of the suspect fleeing or obfuscating evidence, and only if this risk is arguably given, only then the suspect would be put in investigative custody (and that time served will be either counted towards the sentence, if guilty, or damages repayed to the suspect if proven innocent)

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#122

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:11 AM UTC

creato wrote: post #17

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Bail is in fact supposed to be a function of your financial status, and the severity of the crime. What do you suggest as an alternative to bail bonds? Maybe ankle monitors for those awaiting trial? I think maybe the thing that should most change is outlawing bail bondsmen. It seems like the…

Outlawing bail bondsmen, who are a weird bit of private law enforcement that belong in Westerns and nowhere else, is step 1.

The UK system makes very little use of cash bail, recognising that it's pointless for petty crimes and dangerous for violent ones, but one of the most famous recent cases of a big bail bond was .. Julian Assange, who cost his supporters £93,000 by skipping bail. The process of skipping bail was a criminal offence for which he has been jailed. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/08/julian-assange...

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#123

Post by samatman » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:13 AM UTC

krsdcbl wrote: post #121

bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I honestly don't really see the pro side. Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. Assuming the accused is innocent and financially unable to pay for bail, they'll end up in jail without ever having committed a crime. Like so much else in the US, it's showi…

> Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial.

I don't support cash bail, personally, but it's worth noting that some amount of the bail money can be converted to a bounty for the apprehension of those of the accused who go on to skip trial.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#124

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:14 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #84

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

...regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status... Are you f'ing kidding me? Regardless of what crime you commit, you should be able to go home and see your family? What ridiculous world are you advocating for here? Do you even think about the implications of your ideas?

sigh not the only criterion; people credibly accused of violent crimes or deemed a risk to the public should not be granted bail at all.

"You can beat your wife and then go back to your family if and only if you can borrow many thousands of dollars from a sketchy private agency" is also a stupid system.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#125

Post by teekert » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:17 AM UTC

As a non-US person watching certain American series on Netflix just blows my mind. For example, my wife is currently watching "Good Girls" in which we see the following things that really make me never want to live in the US (I wonder if this really happens though, can someone confirm?):

- You can pay to stay out of jail so only poor people stay in jail after a crime, before the trial (guess OP proves this is real).

- The poor people have the worst lawyers and thus the worst chances, and even though they are innocent can be left in debt by the process.

- A couple has a daughter, she needs a kidney. They need to pay 80.000 euro (forcing a choice between crime and the life of the daughter, easy choice I'd think)

- A guy stole crutches because he needed to pay 400$ to take them home (can't walk without them)

- Woman tells ambulance personnel to leave her alone so she can take an Uber to the hospital to reduce cost of healthcare after being shot

- A guy working at something like a loan shop (where people just seem to pile on debt) wants to use the address of a customer so his nephew can get into university (I guess it matters where you live?)

- The couple from point 1 needs to choose between electricity/water and healthcare, decide to mix up checks they send to the companies to buy some time.

I mean the point is already nicely made by "Breaking Bad", how do you want to reduce crime in a society when civilians are constantly forced into such impossible choices? It makes for good TV of course but the stress you must feel when you can just make ends meet in he US must be extreme. I mean there are so may series where the criminals are just perfectly reasonable and lovable, doesn't that tell you something is wrong?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#126

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:19 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #76

You know, systems were established for a reason . It's not like the cash bail system was some ridiculous fanciful notion that someone created to torture the poor. We have arrested people pay cash bail so that we have some forcing function to ensure that they don't flee. And maybe a little bit to provide people the incentive not to commit crime in the first place. I don't know why, but that seems to be considered disc…

A real example of abolishing (some) police: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-54499497

It seems the unfortunately named SARS squad were committing more crime than they were solving.

> poor and powerless being victimized by crime every day

Quite a few people would say, if you actually ask them in their neighbourhoods, that the people who are more likely to victimise them on a daily basis are the police. That's why all the protests have appeared.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#127

Post by imtringued » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:21 AM UTC

creato wrote: post #17

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Bail is in fact supposed to be a function of your financial status, and the severity of the crime. What do you suggest as an alternative to bail bonds? Maybe ankle monitors for those awaiting trial? I think maybe the thing that should most change is outlawing bail bondsmen. It seems like the…

>What do you suggest as an alternative to bail bonds? Maybe ankle monitors for those awaiting trial?

It's pretty obvious. Look at the severity of the crime. If it's severe enough detain them until trial. If not then release them. Why do you think the ability to release drug lords is a necessary feature of your justice system?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#128

Post by Natsu » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:28 AM UTC

teekert wrote: post #125

As a non-US person watching certain American series on Netflix just blows my mind. For example, my wife is currently watching "Good Girls" in which we see the following things that really make me never want to live in the US (I wonder if this really happens though, can someone confirm?): - You can pay to stay out of jail so only poor people stay in jail after a crime, before the trial (guess OP proves this is real).…

It's after an arrest -- whether or not there was a crime is determined at trial.

The idea is both to make sure that people show up for court and to have a bounty to give to bounty hunters if they do not to enforce compliance, rather than putting that on the police themselves, because there just aren't enough cops around to round up everyone who simply wouldn't show up otherwise.

But yeah, being poor is effectively a punishment in and of itself and not just in this circumstance, either.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#129

Post by nickff » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:28 AM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

To be clear, it's not 3 in 5 incarcerated people, it's 3 of 5 in jail. Jail is where you go after being charged, but before conviction, or if you're convicted of a misdemeanor (less than 1 year sentence).

Unfortunately, there is an incentive for local prosecutors to convict people of offences with sentences longer than a year, so as to have them moved to state prisons, but that's a somewhat separate issue.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#130

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:29 AM UTC

ketzo wrote: post #2

Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…

> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime.

While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while they are used for all purposes in the federal system.

This is important, because while the number of pre-trial confinements in the US is way too high, if you fail to understand that distinction statistics about the proportion of jail inmates that are on pre-trial confinement may be grossly misleading.

There is a graphic overview of the whole detention picture here: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html