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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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621–630 of 634 posts

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if I get tricked into installing Do you think that people are incapable of using personal computers then? Just the regular old PC. This argument falls flat on its face, because it is blatantly obvious, that, for some reason, people are capable of using PCs, and don't explode from the confusion of doing so. Every single argument that you are making, could apply to the PC. But people still do alright using PCs. Phone…

> How are they doing that on the PC? PCs work fine. > Just make the iPhone the same as modern day PCs. Which people are already capable of using just fine. Ransomware attacks are absolutely rampant, though you'll never hear about the vast majority of incidents of course, and pretty much all of those start with someone running thingycorp_salaries_full_list.xlsx.exe, enabling macros for a fishy .docx, opening an infect…

> The vast majority will depend on IT

They use PCs right now. As of this moment. They are using PCs, just fine.

It is the existing status quo that everyone is using PCs already.

> I'd rather not let anything get to that point if it can be prevented.

There is not "getting" anywhere. We are already here. We are already living in a world where lots and lots of people use the PC.

Thats what you don't understand. This is the status quo. There are no changes. People already use PCs, right now.

> as easy as just throwing out all restrictions

There is no throwing anything out, because people already are using PCs, right now. Lots of people use them.

You keep phasing this as a "change" when it is not. People using PCs is the status quo.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#622
post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said doxing was mandatory for everyone that believes that. Misquoting me and exaggerating what I said isn’t going to lead to a better understanding. However if you believe that doxing of individual law enforcement officers is justified because of their support for the regime, and you accuse Apple’s team of having blood on their hands for ‘enabling’ the regime, it would be logical to conclude that you support…

> it would be logical to conclude that you support doxing Apple’s employees. But your comment didn't just say such a person would conclude it's justified. You said the logical conclusion would be them participating in the doxxing. Those are very different things. The list of actions that I think are justified but don't participate in is enormous. (And by "mandatory for everyone that believes that" I meant that logic…

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#623
post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said doxing was mandatory for everyone that believes that. Misquoting me and exaggerating what I said isn’t going to lead to a better understanding. However if you believe that doxing of individual law enforcement officers is justified because of their support for the regime, and you accuse Apple’s team of having blood on their hands for ‘enabling’ the regime, it would be logical to conclude that you support…

> it would be logical to conclude that you support doxing Apple’s employees. But your comment didn't just say such a person would conclude it's justified. You said the logical conclusion would be them participating in the doxxing. Those are very different things. The list of actions that I think are justified but don't participate in is enormous. (And by "mandatory for everyone that believes that" I meant that logic…

You have introduced some abstraction and hypotheticals about how people might reason about this that the original commenter was not expressing. I agree these are interesting points.

It is true that some person might have the nuanced sentiments and tactical analysis you hypothesize, but the actual person who I was responding to didn’t seem to be expressing such a complex view in their comment, and my original reply still stands as a reasonable challenge to the implications were of what they wrote, given the sentiment with which they expressed it.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#624
post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because whatever they do , Apple's actions or inactions will have an effect on people in the real world. In the case of videos which might get people beaten or killed or other things, you can argue that Apple shouldn't act to take those down due to anti-censorship principles, or you can argue that Apple should act due to anti-beating-and-killing-or-other principles. What you can't correctly argue is that Apple should…

> What you can't correctly argue is that Apple should avoid getting involved. It is not possible for Apple to start moderating all user generated content in all apps. They shouldn't do it. I gave another example below- Imagine if Chrome decides to stop connecting to a site because the Govt asks Google to do it. They can do it. But they shouldn't

Sure, but your argument is for "shouldn't act".

It's not the same as argument for "avoid getting involved".

They can't choose not be involved, there's literally no way to avoid being involved once you're providing facilities.

The act of producing software which "does not moderate user generated content" is an action demonstrating a particular set of values. It's not neutral.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#625

https://t.me/durov/136 > Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Fucking hell, Apple. ---- cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_...

Please stop worshipping this company. It's not a force for good. They've kicked us out of open computing by locking down the only computer a lot of folks own (iPhone). And now look what kind of shit they can pull because they own the entire stack! This shouldn't be possible! We really have to push against this and hope the DOJ forces all phone providers to allow "side-loading" (what a bizarre term!) The iPhone is a c…

The owner of the computer is an individual with root access to it. iPhone users doesn't own their computers, please stop calling them so.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that's true - and I'm not going to get into that debate here - surely that doesn't mean that every company has to allow their products to become tools of mass violence.

Violence may be seen as legitimate, but it shouldn’t be seen as effective. In a study of over 300 movements, non violent protests are twice as effective. https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/file...

Huh? Tell that to Ukrainian at first peaceful protestors. Which then turned into mildly violent, then hard violent (from the govt side largely) in the end, including what Ukraine now calls the 100 in Heaven ?

How ineffective was that protest?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure people were consenting to have their number listed there in their agreement with their Telco.

You actually had to pay for an unlisted number, IIRC

Yeah! I remember that too. Mmmm also caller id enabled lines also. Yum.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#629
post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

Griefing? Belarus is on the brink of civil war. Doxxing regime supporters can easily end up as a "murder todo list" if things heat up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Griefing

Knowing who breaks the law and applies violence to civil protesters will allow to have a fair trial later.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#630
Exposing personal data surely may violate Apple's TOS. However, obeying the law make sense only in the system, playing by fair rules. If the system is unfair, being honest, if the system is a crazy totalitarian regime, disobeying the law is one of ways to contain it.

To understand the situation in Belarus by example, imagine former Nazi concentration camp guards, protesting against exposing their identities, because Israeli security forces may come after them. Crazy analogy you would say, but Belarusian people call their police and KGB Nazis.

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