Abolish the Cash Bail System
181–190 of 288 posts
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
I honestly don't really see the pro side. Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. Assuming the accused is innocent and financially unable to pay for bail, they'll end up in jail without ever having committed a crime. Like so much else in the US, it's showi…
> Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. I don't support cash bail, personally, but it's worth noting that some amount of the bail money can be converted to a bounty for the apprehension of those of the accused who go on to skip trial.
Hahaha, bounty hunting certainly makes for good movie scripts, but in practice I imagine that it's quite a bad idea.
Leave law enforcement to the police, they are already bad enough at it -- I can't imagine you want poorly trained civilians without uniform to employ violence to apprehend suspects.
What happens when a bounty hunter mistakes the identify of someone who then decides to exercise self-defense against a kidnapping attempt?
The fact that this doesn't constantly cause massive problems in a country full of guns and "stand your ground laws" is amazing :D
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#183Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…
Its because people (generally) believe bad people should be punished, and good people do not get arrested.
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#184First you can tell the police to just not give a fuck. This works well for the kind of people police tend to favor. If you're wealthy and look the part or you're an attractive woman this solution will likely work well for you, being white sure won't hurt either. The problem with this solution is unevenness of enforcement. Anyone of demographics the cops don't like (don't be a young black male) or anyone that crosses the cops is really gonna get screwed by this solution. It's also worth keeping in mind that less work necessitates cuts to the police force. Bored cops are an enemy of a free society.
Second you can solve it with the courts. Let the cops pick up whoever they want and sort it all out in the courts. Release people promptly and without bail, etc. etc. The problem with this solution is that vulnerable people still get screwed hard. "The ride" will still likely cost you your job in a high turnover industry. Eventually the cops are gonna get tired of seeing the same damn bike thief at it again the next day and stop picking people up though if the court doesn't actually punish the real criminals.
Thirdly you can solve this problem at the legislative level. You can not criminalize many things that boil down to minor instances of bad judgement and convert many nonviolent crimes into civil crimes, limit the circumstances under which police can arrest, limit the punishments the courts can inflict, require more prompt trials and releases, etc, etc. The downside is that like every public policy there are losers. There will be loopholes and certain kinds of crime are just gonna be below a threshold where anything gets done about them. If you get unlucky and happen to live beside the obvious crack house that the cops can't do much about then it's simply gonna suck for you. Furthermore people's lives will be ruined by a tolerance approach just as much as by an authoritarian approach. Criminals who have not yet crossed paths with the system to really get punished to the point of changing or thrown in jail will harm and kill people. That's just how it is when you relax laws at scale. Is it worth it? It's a matter of opinion.
Bailing on cash bail targets the court system for the point of reform. It's not a bad thing and certainly every little bit helps but if we truly don't want to over punish people for things society has to come to terms with the fact that it will need to cast a very coarse net and a lot of people engaging in behavior that you, yes you the reader, consider criminal will necessarily slip through (with the details depending on the part of the system in which you choose to make your changes as I've described above). There is no free lunch here. Make no mistake, I don't think this is a zero sum game and I'm all for a very coarse net. I just think a lot of people here are unprepared for exactly what it does look like and how long it takes to stabilize.
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#185Absolutely. It’s one of the most cruel and predatory systems that I can imagine — regardless of the severity of your crime, your ability to go home and see your family is determined by your financial status? Christ. Give me a break. It’s also one of those policies that I literally can’t force myself to imagine a “pro” argument for. > Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. Th…
The money is presumably to cover the cost of sending someone out to find the accused and drag them to the courthouse. If someone can't afford to pay the bond and then tries to run, I don't see how that money can be reclaimed except for the taxpayer covering it.
Someone has decided it is easier to simply keep the accused in jail. Assuming they've done the math on costs properly it would make sense. Taxpayers shouldn't be in a position to cover the cost of people running from the law.
It is an uncomfortable system that clearly biases in favour of the rich - but the rich are the ones covering the cost of it all so I am comfortable standing up and saying I don't mind if they get special treatment. Wealthy people pay something like half the taxes; it seems reasonable that they can wait for their day in court in comfort. Wealth comes with privileges and they aren't criminals until they are convicted.
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Today, three out of five people in U.S. jails have not been convicted of a crime. While its not perfectly divided this way, it's worth noting that the US has different things called “jails” and “prisons” and that the former are mostly for pretrial and short-sentence incarceration and mostly run by local governments, while the latter in state systems are almost exclusively for post-conviction felony sentences, while…
OK, but you can't really argue your way around: > This amounts to nearly half a million people sitting in jail each day, despite being presumed innocent under the law
Ok, but it's not the same half million on any given day. A huge number of those people got picked up the night before and will be out (on bail or otherwise) by the end of the business day. Incarcerating people is expensive. Even if getting them out doesn't involve the state getting an interest free loan the state still has an incentive to get them out.
In functional jurisdictions the turnover is high. I know that there's a litany of exceptions for the authoritarian (and therefore more inclined to lock people up for no good reason) and well moneyed (and have the money to do it) jurisdictions in the Boston-DC corridor (and please nobody construe this as me giving the Southeast or west coast a pass, they suck too but do it differently) but the underlying problem there is societal. If you reform bail the well moneyed authoritarian jurisdictions are still well moneyed and still authoritarians and will simply spend that money using the system to screw people some other way.
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
Western Europe doesn't have bail bonds, and seems to function quite well. People don't run away, because running away from a criminal prosecution means your current life (house, possessions, career, friends, family, etc) is over. People who actually are flight risks (due to the nature of the crime, extensive assets out-of-country, etc) can be held in jail pending trial, but that's pretty rare. OR consider it this way…
The people who will skip trial and go underground are the reason this system exists. These aren’t professionals with mortgages.
Really? What kind of people are they?
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#188The whole criminal "justice" system in the states looks crazy to me. Bail reform won't really fix that.
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#189Heck, you can even easily buy these forced laborers online from https://www.unicor.gov/Index.aspx
I guess this cash bail system is created to fuel modern slavery in the United States today, which is actually fully legal according to the US constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System
#190As a non-US person watching certain American series on Netflix just blows my mind. For example, my wife is currently watching "Good Girls" in which we see the following things that really make me never want to live in the US (I wonder if this really happens though, can someone confirm?): - You can pay to stay out of jail so only poor people stay in jail after a crime, before the trial (guess OP proves this is real).…
1. You don't pay, you just deposit money. If you show up to court, you get the money back. If you don't have that money on hand, its common to take out a loan. 2. Everyone has the right to a free public defender. I don't know if there's any study on how they compare to private lawyers. 3, 4, 5, and 7. Low income people are eligible for Medicaid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicaid 6. I've never heard of location m…
If you're rich, yes. In practice, poor people can't round up enough money, so they must rely on a bondsman. So they'll pay something like 10% of the bail, and the bondsman will post the rest of the loan. The bondsman keeps the 10% at the end though.
Often people can't even round up the 10% and have to just stay in jail.