Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Abolish the Cash Bail System

arcdigital.media

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 288 posts

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#151

Post by bJGVygG7MQVF8c »

kelnos wrote: post #63
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. Means testing flat-out doesn't work. There are plenty of people who get caught in the system who can afford exactly zero dollars for bail, and I find it damn near impossible…

> 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice

those 10 guilty people who escaped justice? guess what, they all just went on to brutally rape and murder your wife.

does the calculation still look the same?

this boneheaded comment is what our friends in the social justice community (if they were slightly more consistent) would call speaking from a place of privilege

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#152

Post by bJGVygG7MQVF8c »

kepler1 wrote: post #89
kelnos wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. Means testing flat-out doesn't work. There are plenty of people who get caught in the system who can afford exactly zero dollars for bail, and I find it damn near impossible…

...I would rather see 10 guilty people flee before their trial and escape justice, than see one innocent person get stuck in jail pre-trial because they couldn't cough up the cash for a bail bond, causing them to lose their job and ruin their life. This is why poor black neighborhoods are crime ridden and victimized. You would have the law abiding citizen of these poor areas subject to 10 criminals roaming the street…

100%. white virtue-signaling politics gets poor and non-white people killed.

Thomas Sowell described this dynamic well.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#153

Post by Broken_Hippo »

0xBA5ED wrote: post #135
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. If I remember correctly, we can reduce folks not showing up by simple measures, like calling to remind folks of trial dates and making sure folks have transportation to get to trial. Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking c…

>I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. >Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking children, when we can do these other things that don't criminalize poverty while having less disruption of life? Keep in mind, it isn't easy to suddenly and accidentally get thrown in jail. If the…

But it is easy to get thrown in jail. This is especially true if your skin isn't white enough: How many stories do you hear of folks being in jail for having the description, "Tall black male?".

You act like everyone can avoid all things: Have you never met anyone put in jail for not paying child support when they don't have a job... in part, because they were put in jail for not paying child support?

Or... you can live in a weed-friendly state and forget you have some in your car while traveling. Jail for drugs now. Heck, you can be jailed for being in a house with drugs, even if you weren't doing drugs yourself. "Visiting a common nuisance" is a thing they charge folks with [1]. I don't think it is as common now, but at one time, it wasn't uncommon to get arrested while walking home drunk for public intoxication, even though driving would have been criminal. Indiana cops used to wait outside bars to arrest folks for this. While it might be prohibited now, this ruined lives and stuff like this still happens.

You don't have, "many chances". You just get caught or you don't, and you can get caught your first time. It happens. For some things, simply living in public housing increases your chances because of heavy police presence that isn't there for nicer neighborhoods: Sometimes nicer neighborhoods have conditions that make getting caught less because you are smoking weed in a spacious backyard rather than on a balcony where others can see and smell.

[1]https://www.in.gov/meth/files/Visiting_or_Maintaining_a_Comm...

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#154

Post by throwaway17_17 »

smitty1110 wrote: post #34
hevelvarik wrote: post #10

No. First figure out how to keep dangerous criminals off the street pre-trial. Then let’s talk. Cash bail is regressive and often unjust, I’m not willing to correct this injustice without a viable alternative to simply allowing dangerous people back onto the street hoping that they show up to trial and that they do not destroy while out. I believe our system has flaws that need correcting, but I do not advocate destr…

There are plenty of valid reasons for detaining a suspect without bail [1]. Violent crimes, histories of violence, and repeat offenses all seem to trigger detention without bail at the federal level. It should also be noted that the subject of bail actually only appears once, in 18 sec. 3142(c)(B)(xii). N.B. - This is federal law, I'm not going to try to dive into individual state law unless I'm being bribed with age…

Just curious why not Louisianan law particularly? On this topic the statutory, if not the implementation by judges, is pretty succinct.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#155

Post by krsdcbl »

imgabe wrote: post #132
krsdcbl wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't really see the pro side. Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. Assuming the accused is innocent and financially unable to pay for bail, they'll end up in jail without ever having committed a crime. Like so much else in the US, it's showi…

It's not like you can forfeit the bail, skip the trial and then just walk away scot-free. There's now a warrant out for your arrest and an additional charge, and you've torpedoed pretty much any chance of leniency. If it's a serious enough crime, they will come looking for you, and you will not be offered bail a second time. If it wasn't too serious, they might not come looking for you, but you'll have an active warr…

of course, but how does this stop anyone from _fleeing_ once bail is made or from obfuscating evidence whilst awaiting trial?

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#156

Post by krsdcbl »

samatman wrote: post #123
krsdcbl wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't really see the pro side. Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. Assuming the accused is innocent and financially unable to pay for bail, they'll end up in jail without ever having committed a crime. Like so much else in the US, it's showi…

> Assuming the accused is guilty and financially well able to pay for bail, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me to just drop some cash, write it off, and be able to leave and never show up for trial. I don't support cash bail, personally, but it's worth noting that some amount of the bail money can be converted to a bounty for the apprehension of those of the accused who go on to skip trial.

which might also work without bail, as incarcerating the accused would cost tax money anyway - so it doesn't work too well just as an incentive for showing up, but also doesn't hinder the accused from fleeing or destroying evidence once they do pay bail.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#157

Post by Ensorceled »

The entire criminal justice system needs an overhaul; from the way the police operate (under paid, over worked, under trained, almost no accountability), to the way DAs are incented to heavily prosecute and plea bargain, from the way prisons are over used to the way having a conviction drastically reduces your QoL even after incarceration.

Add that the whole system is heavily skewed against PoC and the poor ...

Focusing on one flaw in the whole, majorly flawed system is a waste of time: the defund the police, the no cash bail, the no slave labour movements all need to get together into a "fix the system" movement.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#158

Post by jacobush »

throwaway17_17 wrote: post #154
smitty1110 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of valid reasons for detaining a suspect without bail [1]. Violent crimes, histories of violence, and repeat offenses all seem to trigger detention without bail at the federal level. It should also be noted that the subject of bail actually only appears once, in 18 sec. 3142(c)(B)(xii). N.B. - This is federal law, I'm not going to try to dive into individual state law unless I'm being bribed with age…

Just curious why not Louisianan law particularly? On this topic the statutory, if not the implementation by judges, is pretty succinct.

Probably just a humorous comment, because it's the only US state not based on Common Law. On the other hand, Wikipedia says "Louisiana's criminal law largely rests on American common law."

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#159

Post by nojokes »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #133
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

I don't know. I think it is much better that a few folks don't show up to trial than to criminalize being poor. If I remember correctly, we can reduce folks not showing up by simple measures, like calling to remind folks of trial dates and making sure folks have transportation to get to trial. Why the heck would we put low-and-medium risk folks in jail, to be put in a position to lose their job, house, and freaking c…

Bail system is indeed inhuman. In the country I am from this does not exists. You could be jailed until court when there is high risk that you will continue to commit crimes or when you would hurt the investigation. No amount of money could reduce these risks. When you are found not guilty then there is a compensation for days spent in jail.

Re: Abolish the Cash Bail System

#160

Post by meragrin_ »

btashton wrote: post #114
bawolff wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro side: I don't see anything wrong with requiring a surety to ensure that people awaiting trial don't flee, in principle. It makes sure people are less likely to run away while at the same time doesnt force them to sit in jail while they await trial. It should be relative to your ability to pay, and the commercial bondsman industry seems messed up, but those are implementation details and not the core of the system…

Except that even studies by the US Department of Justice show that risk of financial loss has one of the lowest impacts on likely to appear in court. This is also not recent discovery, this was heavily researched in the 70s. Ironically just releasing people as soon as possible actually has one of the largest impacts on making sure people show. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/32349NCJRS.pdf https://www.nc…

Is it about risk of financial loss or about setting up a financial incentive for a third-party to bring the person in?
Post reply on HN