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Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

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Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#141
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A decent tube amp is not significantly more expensive than a decent modeling amp, particularly considering the used market. They're also just as "bulky" as a solid state amp - the heaviest components are the power transformer and drivers. When you start talking about professional gear, the cost of modeling amps is more than tubes. I'd also contest that this is "figured out" - this area is actively researched.

Price and weight are close. About $2500. AxeFx III is about ~6.8 Kg. Between a half and a third of a Plexi head or an AC-30 Head. For a stadium band. It makes the stage setup much easier. No cabinets, mics and low stage volume. Each member gets a rack with two units (backup) and you are done. Sound will be always the same. Less likely to fail. For a small band, you don't need the bulky rack editions. You get the same…

Nobody is buying or playing those big heads these days. It's super rare to see people buying tube amps above the 50w range even for stage use. They're just too loud and unweildy and weigh an absolute ton.

I've been in high end music retail for several years and even the big name stars we deal with are buying primarily combo tube amps in the 40w range.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#142
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most popular guitar amps now are all solid state Maybe on the low end of the market, but tube amps still reign supreme for most serious players.

Yeah I didn’t get this statement. I only play tube amps, and most guitarists I know only play tube amps. I actually don’t know anyone that plays a modeling amp. Maybe they’re more popular outside of my sphere, but even with popular YouTube guitars players, they all play tube amps. Mostly Fender.

https://www.kemper-amps.com/artist-gallery

No one has mentioned Kemper yet, and Kemper - made by the same programmer who developed the Acccess Virus DSP synth - is the go-to modelling system for pros and serious wannabes.

This is really a solved problem. DSP won. You can freight multiple valve heads around if you really want to, but no one in the audience or the rest of the band is going to notice, never mind care.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#143
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of touring musicians using Kemper digital models of their tube amps or Helix/AxeFX

I just returned a Helix because of lackluster... everything. I'll try modelers again in a few years. I think of tube amps a lot like I think about Vim.

The Helix is honestly pretty awful, so I'm not surprised you returned it. I spent some time auditioning modellers a few years ago, and my reaction to the Helix was "LOL! Seriously??"

The Kemper is far more credible, with the AxeFX system and and some of the better amp sim plugins you can buy from (say) UAD following behind.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low wattage tube amps exist.

Low wattage is still too loud for home / apartment. You need something in the milliwatt range, and those are (unfortunately) very rare. They’re not too hard to make but there is some extra expense and there are some patents in that territory.

I have and have restored a few fender blues juniors and they are all quiet enough for residential. Just crank the volume but keep the master at 1-1.5. It’s not ideal, but you do get the desired sound.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#145
post #60
post #6

Just tried it out, I don't know if I would say it sounds like a $600 tube amp especially in high gain scenarios (it really didn't like my active pickups), for a free plugin it is definitely great. In comparison to the Archetype Nolly plugin from Neural DSP it doesn't really compare, but but for something thats free and can be trained at home on custom audio samples its pretty cool.

wow, I was literally just about to download the trial for the archetype nolly (after being iffy on whether the fortin nameless was right for what I wanted), what are the chances it's being discussed on HN. I'm hoping that the nolly plugin can cover both dirty and clean sounds well enough to not need a second plugin, fingers crossed

Here’s my unscientific breakdown of how I view the Nolly, Cali, and Nameless plugins.

Nolly: most versatile thanks to its multiple amps, far and away my favorite for most things. I recently used it to mix an entire album of very polished black metal, replacing the real fuzzy mic signals captured in the studio. The band loved it. Extremely detailed. Got some gorgeous cleans out of it, too.

Cali: this one reminds me a lot of my own Marshall tube amp. It was the first one that really sold me on using Neural DSP plugins instead of amps in the studio. It’s a lot dirtier than the Nolly and I don’t find it appropriate for situations where I want a very polished sound. Recently chose this over the Nolly for a more organic sounding black metal project.

Nameless: this always sounds unnatural to me. It’s good and intense but I always come away feeling like it’s fizzy and flat. It’s a simulation of an amp Fortin made for Meshuggah, so I think it might have a very specific audience. Last year, I blended this with some live amp signals to get some added bite and it worked nicely but I haven’t reached for it since then.

You might also consider disabling the cab sim in the plugin and use a third party IR loader. I find GGD Zilla Cabs to be a complete game changer, a cheap and crucial upgrade to every one of Neural DSP’s plugins.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take it as a fact that you’ll commonly have higher standards than your audience. This applies to software, actors, musicians, whatever. That, and your experience affects your performance. It’s easier for an actor to act in a room full of props and other actors, versus a green screen. Easier for a musician to make music with the gear and tone that they prefer.

"...Take it as a fact that you’ll commonly have higher standards than your audience. This applies to software, actors, musicians, whatever..." Can you explain this a bit more? I do not see this is commonly true, it is the exception and not the rule in many cases of 'someone and their audience'. It might be true that that 'someone' believes it, however misguided.

Any form of art or engineering requires a huge amount of background knowledge and/or practice experience, and artists and engineers should have a better grasp of the technicalities than the audience.

But audiences tend not to care about specifics. They care if you can live up to expectations and provide the experience they expect. So if a performance is lacklustre, or a piece of software is stupidly designed from their POV, they'll know something has gone wrong - but they won't know (or care) exactly why.

Amateurs and wannabes tend to fethishise equipment instead of art. There's a lot of "If only I had that equipment I could do this properly."

The reality is that expensive pro-grade equipment only ever adds a final layer of polish. It's also good at not getting in the way with unnecessary frills and complications.

So a world-class professional with a budget guitar will always outplay and outperform an amateur with a pro-league instrument. No exceptions. And a professional photographer will always take better photos with your phone than you will. And so on.

The professional may notice some polish is missing and they may have to work harder than usual - but they will be able to do the job, while an amateur won't, no matter what they're using.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#147
post #55
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably that's what the author had available? I mean, for a free plug-in it's not like there's a budget to go and splurge on hardware. Looks like the point of the project is that this can be used to make their own models easily.

Yeah I'm not a company here, just a musician with an interest in machine learning and a few amps cluttering up the bedroom. I'd love for other people to train and share new models with this technology. I think that making this free and open source gives it the potential for much smarter people to make something bigger than I can do on my own in my free time.

Looks like a very outstanding engineering approach.

Different construction of the same tube type will have different musical characteristics, sometimes dramatically so especially when overdriven beyond linear operation. Even though measured performance would be equivalent in things like power supplies or most other non-audio circuitry, or even non-overdriven audio.

There is a unique difference when plugging guitars straight in versus using a common pedal or preamp of any type. The very limited magnetically generated power coming out of the quite high impedance of your pickups is directly connected through minimal resistance to the input pin of the even higher impedance tube electrode which extends into the vacuum. From that point on, your music is being basically sprayed through space.

So plugging direct (or true bypass) is the only way to be magnetically coupled directly to the vacuum you will be spraying your music through to begin with. You can feel it when you crank it whether overdriven or not.

A pedal or preamp inserted between guitar and legendary amp can overdrive the amp in its legendary way much easier sometimes because of the gain provided by the additional circuitry upstream of the amp, it can be very tasty but you are no longer magnetically coupled to a legendary tube amp.

Also unless the preamp/pedal is a simple clean gain stage such as an EH LPB2, which simply boosts the high impedance guitar signal unchanged using 9V battery power to give the amp more input amplitude than a plain guitar, the pedal is more likely to be generating the audible distortion rather than, or at least in addition to, the overdriven tubes.

You probably have more than one 12AX7, even most individual amps. Might as well try each one in the most critical input socket to get the most musical one picked out, along with checking for hum, hiss & microphonics which you don't want being amplified from that early of a gain stage.

It's only the big power tubes that can require matched pairs or quads, 12AX7's can be switched at will.

If some of your 12AX7's don't sound better than others, you've got all crummy tubes or there is something else concealing the full tone available.

Seems to me an emulator based on ML could be trained by live playing of the exact guitarist, guitar, and rig that you wanted to generate sound similar to.

Then it should be able to convincingly generate a synthetic tune of its own having the characteristic musical style of the player using the tone of the combined gear. Probably easier said than done.

Instead when you trigger tone output from the model digitally you would think some of the fingering variations might be heard too, but probably not any musical style, even if all are in the model to an extent.

When you plug in your guitar and play through it I think your own musical style would prevail like normal, and the fingering influence could be good for augmenting less expressive fretwork, but there are going to be times when you want to plug your own select guitar into just the amp portion of the model.

To get this option you would need to have sampling/insertion points between the elements, or at least between the guitar & amp.

You need to know what the signal looks like right before it goes into the amp so you can see the exclusive effect of the amp model alone and compensate for the guitarist & guitar (& pedal) during training.

If you're not going to draw on the musical style or instrument being in the model, maybe it shouldn't always be there to begin with.

It might be possible to switch them in or out like an effects loop.

Otherwise when you plug in your guitar and process it using the model, you're hearing a guitar plugged into another guitar plugged into a tube amp. And that's provided the training guitarist's musical style is only lurking silently.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#148
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, I was literally just about to download the trial for the archetype nolly (after being iffy on whether the fortin nameless was right for what I wanted), what are the chances it's being discussed on HN. I'm hoping that the nolly plugin can cover both dirty and clean sounds well enough to not need a second plugin, fingers crossed

Here’s my unscientific breakdown of how I view the Nolly, Cali, and Nameless plugins. Nolly: most versatile thanks to its multiple amps, far and away my favorite for most things. I recently used it to mix an entire album of very polished black metal, replacing the real fuzzy mic signals captured in the studio. The band loved it. Extremely detailed. Got some gorgeous cleans out of it, too. Cali: this one reminds me a…

awesome, thanks for the breakdown!

Any experience with Plini? It seems to be the closest to Nolly, and from a cursory look it seems people generally like it better. I suppose I'll have to get the trials for both to compare

I had never heard of GGD's IR loader, seems awesome! Definitely on the list of things to buy now

Feel free to drop a link to the album you made with the nolly plugin, I'd love to take a listen

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#149
post #125

I think that you can get lower latency and better sounding models with convolution. It's also quite fun to build your own impulse response library from things around your home, emulating the properties of your kitchen sink for example.

Convolution is linear, tube amps have many levels of nonlinear behavior.

Whether or not it is nonlinear is another question. I'm saying that amp emulation using convolution is cheaper computationally, usually a lot more approachable and way more configurable. Ultimately people use this to make sound, so I'm commenting on the sound qualities that convolution affords which to me are good enough considering you've already gone digital to model something analog anyway.

Re: Show HN: SmartGuitarAmp – Guitar plugin made with deep learning

#150
post #44

For people who don’t play guitar, this is really commonplace technology now. Engineers worked out how to model the circuit behavior of any amp a while ago. Powerful valve guitar amps have really interesting effects on the waveform particularly when driven hard, but that valve technology is expensive, unreliable, bulky, and very loud when producing some of the most sought after tones. The most popular guitar amps now…

The idea that this technology is "the most popular" is incorrect as is the idea that tube amps are unreliable. The katana and fender GT sound "fine" but the assertion that they can model traditional tube amps well enough for stage use is also a little suspect. Those specific amps sound thin and lifeless compared to the amps they attempt to model. Where these types of amps shine is that they're lighter and you can hav…

Modeling can also give you an incredible pallette at your fingertips.

But the same fingertips can not even be trained to fully master the pallette available from a simple amp like a vintage Champ or Bassman without even reverb or tremolo.

Careful choice of guitar, pickups, strings, tubes and speakers each broaden the pallette and build on each other and these are all user selectable, just nowhere near as convenient as changing digital models. Also most vintage pro amps in excellent working condition or fully restored are more reliable than the cabinets, whose reliability mainly depended on how high it fell off the truck from. You're supposed to have spare guitars, cables & strings anyway, plus tubes and an extension speaker to avoid show-stoppers if you only have one amp.

Transistor amps shouldn't be turned on in direct sun either, but they can last quite a bit longer before expiration.

We had a very talented guitarist locally who had a great sounding Line 6 100 watt 2x12 which lasted a long time, but replaced by an older, longer-lasting Twin Reverb he regained a certain stonk that you could tell had an effect on the dance floor.

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