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Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

asia.nikkei.com

131–140 of 281 posts

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#131

1. How is this really different to government-mandated microphones and cameras in your house, school, workplace, etc? 2. What’s the endgame here? Open-source encrypted messaging software is widely available. The cat is out of the bag. Every country on Earth could outlaw the technology and it would still be trivially easy for criminals to use it. Do the people behind these proposals not see that?

Placed in your hands the responsibility of protecting/securing lives of innocent citizens you would overlook the privacy of citizens.

Paradoxes of technology-industrial complex.

Nothing out there is better than face-2-face social meetings. Nothing private should have access to the internet let alone "going over secure links".

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#132
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think NOT having a facebook account has ever prevented anyone from getting a job. Rather the opposite, actually. Well, you're wrong. I've had interviewers ask why I host my own blog instead of using Facebook, and said it was very unusual that they couldn't check out my social background. And Craiglist rental ads often screen applicants using social media, usually Facebook.

> Well, you're wrong. I've had interviewers ask why I host my own blog instead of using Facebook, and said it was very unusual that they couldn't check out my social background. Well, why would an employer need to check your social background? They should care about your skills more than anything else.

> why would an employer need to check your social background? They should care about your skills more than anything else.

I don’t want to work in an office with an unrepentant violent criminal or vigorous racist. Irrespective of their skill.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#133
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA, email that has been stored for longer than some (fairly short) period I don't remember offhand doesn't require a warrant to access. Just think about that for a while.

Yep, after 180 days it only requires a subpoena (which does not require any court). See the Stored Communications Act.

> after 180 days it only requires a subpoena (which does not require any court)

If stored on an American third-party server.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#134
post #57
post #46

Crime will be the price that a free society pays. We need a certain tolerance of petty crime if we are going to truest be free.

This comment seems to ignore crimes committed by the government in bulk against the people. Surveillance societies have a lot more crime, it’s just carried out by a single set of uniformed groups.

But they're not called "crimes" when they're made into laws and obligations.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#135
post #110
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is this really different to government-mandated microphones and cameras in your house, school, workplace, etc? The difference is that the infrastructure is in place and can be turned on at will so it feels within the reach of the people who think they deserved to do that. They think that deserve it because they believe that the job they do is the most important thing in the world and they can suddenly gain acce…

I'm not really sure what your point is here. And the reason to be pro-nuclear is the vast quantities of environmentally friendly energy. The argument isn't that Fukushima or Chernobyl won't happen again (although they probably won't) - the argument is that after including Fukushima and Chernobyl nuclear power is still , according to the evidence, safer and more environmentally friendly than solar or wind. The damage…

> This compares very poorly with a surveillance state, where there is no particular theory that a surveillance state ever does anything good.

Alignment. This is a thing which benefits those in power, not the general population; those in power always either think they are acting in the best interest of the people, or don’t care what the interests of the general population are. Either way, surveillance states support whatever goals the people at the top have.

> The best-case positive for a surveillance state is people lose any expectation of privacy but a few hundred criminals a year get caught who wouldn't otherwise.

If you think drugs are a serious problem (I don’t, but governments act like it is, and my brother’s in-laws (who are are Pilipino) support Duterte‘s drugs policy), consider: in the UK 2017-18 crime survey, 9% of 16 to 59-year-olds reported using a drug in the previous year[1].

If the No Drugs Party wants to end drugs forever, how tempting would perfect surveillance be for them? That’s not a mere few criminals, it’s a radical change to society that the No Drugs Party would want to actively pursue.

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#136

1. How is this really different to government-mandated microphones and cameras in your house, school, workplace, etc? 2. What’s the endgame here? Open-source encrypted messaging software is widely available. The cat is out of the bag. Every country on Earth could outlaw the technology and it would still be trivially easy for criminals to use it. Do the people behind these proposals not see that?

>>"What’s the endgame here? Open-source encrypted messaging software is widely available. The cat is out of the bag. Every country on Earth could outlaw the technology and it would still be trivially easy for criminals to use it."

There is no endgame, strictly. Like a "war on drugs" or terrorism, crime will never raises a white flag and surrender. So, no endgame. For insight on the point, I think it's useful to compare CCP strategy 1 to CCP strategy 2: soft power.

I mean soft power broadly, rather than the strictly geopolitical play. Early on, China sought absolute goals, like the USSR and others. The literally tried to control knowledge itself. Strict bans on books or encyclopedias with a bad narrative. Overseas travel was considered dangerous, and vetting was required.

These days, instruments like the great firewall don't work that way. People can work around the great firewall, travel and access information (eg foreign papers) if they want to. A short wave radio, a foreign magazine or a vpn are no longer serious contraband. But, most of the stuff that most people access is approved. They can't keep news of something big a secret, but they never really could. What they can do is monitor, manage and influence the conversation. High influence is the goal, not strict control.

Same here. Sure, sophisticated criminals can avoid fb. But, most people do use fb. This "most people, most of the time" includes criminals, friends of criminals, etc. This is enough. Enough to be chilling. Enough to make secure systems feel sketchy. Enough to help with the the job, whether the job is investigating a string of robberies or monitoring separatist rebels.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#137
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's quite extreme view. Apps should protect users and police should seek to end crime. Only when these two needs cross we get something fair. If one side gives in we all lose.

Offering lawful access to widely deployed encryption is hardly an extreme view. Our IC and their partners, as well as our bureaucrats, are mostly in agreement. An extreme view might entail banning certain forms of math on the internet entirely, rather than simply regulating the widely deployed frictionless math.

Encryption cannot and will not ever be stopped due to it being math.

Oh, and make sure to use steganography when appropriate.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#138
post #136

1. How is this really different to government-mandated microphones and cameras in your house, school, workplace, etc? 2. What’s the endgame here? Open-source encrypted messaging software is widely available. The cat is out of the bag. Every country on Earth could outlaw the technology and it would still be trivially easy for criminals to use it. Do the people behind these proposals not see that?

>>" What’s the endgame here? Open-source encrypted messaging software is widely available. The cat is out of the bag. Every country on Earth could outlaw the technology and it would still be trivially easy for criminals to use it. " There is no endgame, strictly. Like a "war on drugs" or terrorism, crime will never raises a white flag and surrender. So, no endgame. For insight on the point , I think it's useful to co…

> Enough to be chilling

See also: https://www.socialcooling.com/ (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24627363).

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#139
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. How is this really different to government-mandated microphones and cameras in your house, school, workplace, etc? It's different because you're voluntarily giving information to a third party (Facebook), which the government is asking to share with police. You may not agree with it, but that's the difference. It's a pretty substantial one.

The government isn’t asking them to share data, because Facebook doesn’t have it to share. The request is for Facebook to change its product so they do have data to share. Just like if the government forced construction companies to install monitoring devices, no?

Technically I think the request is for them to not change their product, and to maintain the status quo.

Re: Five Eyes and Japan call for Facebook backdoor to monitor crime

#140

Every single social network is backdoored by multiple governments.

Mastodon is not.

It’s in an even worse position being self hosted by people/entities with no power or sway in the face of a state.

Is there a technical provision that applies to people hosting mastodon instances that doesn’t apply to large social media cos and cannot be beaten with a $5 wrench?

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