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Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

news.flinders.edu.au

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Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#41

Post by tgbugs »

mci wrote: post #28

I have procured a PDF of the paper. Ctrl+F race finds nothing in it. The authors treat e.g. these results equivalently: * Adachi, B. (1928) Das Arteriensystem der Japaner. Kyoto, Japan (8.00%) * Kodama, K. (2000) Arteries of the upper limb. Tokyo, Japan (8.2%) * Henneberg, M. and George, B.J. (1992a) High incidence of the median artery of the forearm in a sample of recent South African cadavers (27.10%) * Cheruiyot,…

I work with a consortium that is trying to map the anatomy of the peripheral nervous system. My key take home has been that our knowledge of peripheral anatomy at population scale is woefully inadequate. People look at Vesalius and think "oh, that was settled 500 years ago," but as it turns out it seems that we know far more about the peripheral anatomy of our pets and domestic animals than we do about our own.

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#42

Post by sradman »

mci wrote: post #28

I have procured a PDF of the paper. Ctrl+F race finds nothing in it. The authors treat e.g. these results equivalently: * Adachi, B. (1928) Das Arteriensystem der Japaner. Kyoto, Japan (8.00%) * Kodama, K. (2000) Arteries of the upper limb. Tokyo, Japan (8.2%) * Henneberg, M. and George, B.J. (1992a) High incidence of the median artery of the forearm in a sample of recent South African cadavers (27.10%) * Cheruiyot,…

> The focus of this study was not to analyse the prevalence of the occurrence of the median artery in relation to ethnicity, geographic origin or variations by sex, but to identify the global trends in its occurrence.

Hopefully this paper will inspire more research involving this interesting phenotype. I'm curious about the population specific prevalence too.

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#43

Post by Retric »

yarg wrote: post #35
learc83 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> #2 killer in the US it’s likely for the circulatory system to be undergoing rapid change. Primarily killing people past reproductive age though.

Does it also impact fertility?

Heart disease can impact cognitive function, fertility, economic status, etc well before death.

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#44

Post by sradman »

tgbugs wrote: post #41
mci wrote: post #28

I have procured a PDF of the paper. Ctrl+F race finds nothing in it. The authors treat e.g. these results equivalently: * Adachi, B. (1928) Das Arteriensystem der Japaner. Kyoto, Japan (8.00%) * Kodama, K. (2000) Arteries of the upper limb. Tokyo, Japan (8.2%) * Henneberg, M. and George, B.J. (1992a) High incidence of the median artery of the forearm in a sample of recent South African cadavers (27.10%) * Cheruiyot,…

I work with a consortium that is trying to map the anatomy of the peripheral nervous system. My key take home has been that our knowledge of peripheral anatomy at population scale is woefully inadequate. People look at Vesalius and think "oh, that was settled 500 years ago," but as it turns out it seems that we know far more about the peripheral anatomy of our pets and domestic animals than we do about our own.

Is there a non-intrusive (and hopefully inexpensive) imaging technique that can be used on a living population rather than depending on cadaver dissection? Doppler, ultrasound, or even modified consumer wrist reflective PPG (like in the Apple Watch) should be able to detect the median artery. I imagine nerves are harder to map.

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#45

Post by sradman »

rthomas6 wrote: post #24

Could this be an epigenetic/gene expression change caused by increased use of our forearm and hand muscles? For instance, how I'm typing this right now, and how children write a lot more than they used to.

From the paper's Introduction:

> The regression of the median artery commences at approximately the eighth week of intrauterine life. However, the median artery persists in a considerable number of foetuses of gestation ages 13–38 weeks, in newborns and infants and in adults.

I'm guessing no to epigenetics unless it involves a change in the intrauterine environment.

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#46

Post by slickrick216 »

cm2187 wrote: post #36
slickrick216 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Selection pressure probably doesn’t apply to evolution in the present tense as evolution is not a conscious entity. Survival of the fittest could have only a past tense application ie the cause of evolution traits surviving. In this case evolution doesn’t know if 3 arteries is good or bad it just happens those people have more kids and their kids have more kids until one day all the 3 artery people die because of som…

You are assuming this is completely random, and perhaps it is. But the evolutions about wisdom teeth for instance seem logical.

Yeah maybe I don’t know how that could happen though. Epigenetics maybe?

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#47

Post by tyre »

danieltillett wrote: post #40
mci wrote: post #28

I have procured a PDF of the paper. Ctrl+F race finds nothing in it. The authors treat e.g. these results equivalently: * Adachi, B. (1928) Das Arteriensystem der Japaner. Kyoto, Japan (8.00%) * Kodama, K. (2000) Arteries of the upper limb. Tokyo, Japan (8.2%) * Henneberg, M. and George, B.J. (1992a) High incidence of the median artery of the forearm in a sample of recent South African cadavers (27.10%) * Cheruiyot,…

But this hypothesis is not going to get you sexy headlines and your next grant funded. If we don’t fix the problems with grant funding and the resulting imperative to publish or perish we are going to kill science.

With a limited pool of funding, how would you decide?

If a committee, how would they be chosen, guarding against bias, etc.

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#48

Post by mci »

tgbugs wrote: post #41
mci wrote: post #28

I have procured a PDF of the paper. Ctrl+F race finds nothing in it. The authors treat e.g. these results equivalently: * Adachi, B. (1928) Das Arteriensystem der Japaner. Kyoto, Japan (8.00%) * Kodama, K. (2000) Arteries of the upper limb. Tokyo, Japan (8.2%) * Henneberg, M. and George, B.J. (1992a) High incidence of the median artery of the forearm in a sample of recent South African cadavers (27.10%) * Cheruiyot,…

I work with a consortium that is trying to map the anatomy of the peripheral nervous system. My key take home has been that our knowledge of peripheral anatomy at population scale is woefully inadequate. People look at Vesalius and think "oh, that was settled 500 years ago," but as it turns out it seems that we know far more about the peripheral anatomy of our pets and domestic animals than we do about our own.

I once tried to write an algorithm cookbook where the network flow problem would be illustrated by a simplified human circulatory system, and its edge capacities — by the diameters of the major blood vessels (this is how I knew to look for Adachi in this paper).

Besides the diameters being different in autopsies and ultrasounds, it turned out that while the mean diameters of the arteries are generally known, as they are used for diagnosing aneurysms, no source I found cared to publish the mean diameter of, say, the left and right gastroepiploic veins.

Also, even if 90% of people have the prevalent topology of some branching of blood vessels and only 10% have other variants, there are so many branchings that hardly anyone has a "textbook" circulatory system (that is, if the branchings are independent; I have seen no study of their correlations).

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#49

Post by danieltillett »

tyre wrote: post #47
danieltillett wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this hypothesis is not going to get you sexy headlines and your next grant funded. If we don’t fix the problems with grant funding and the resulting imperative to publish or perish we are going to kill science.

With a limited pool of funding, how would you decide? If a committee, how would they be chosen, guarding against bias, etc.

This problem has been solved long ago. Screen all grant applications to weed out the flawed approaches (the bottom 25%) and then run a lottery on the remaining. If there is nothing to game, the gaming stops.

Re: Forearm artery reveals human evolution continues?

#50

Post by tlarkworthy »

sradman wrote: post #44
tgbugs wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work with a consortium that is trying to map the anatomy of the peripheral nervous system. My key take home has been that our knowledge of peripheral anatomy at population scale is woefully inadequate. People look at Vesalius and think "oh, that was settled 500 years ago," but as it turns out it seems that we know far more about the peripheral anatomy of our pets and domestic animals than we do about our own.

Is there a non-intrusive (and hopefully inexpensive) imaging technique that can be used on a living population rather than depending on cadaver dissection? Doppler, ultrasound, or even modified consumer wrist reflective PPG (like in the Apple Watch) should be able to detect the median artery. I imagine nerves are harder to map.

MRI can measure blood flow (not cheap though)
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