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ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

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Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#371
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side-loaded stores can't auto-update apps. You have to confirm each app every time. It's unacceptable UX for a typical user.

We’re going down the rabbit hole but a user can install Aurora Services to get background installs in conjunction with Aurora Store. Currently I would assume the same users that are using alt stores probably have root access to install. Similarly one can flash F-Droid’s privileged extension. https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS/AuroraService https://gitlab.com/fdroid/privileged-extension

Oh yeah, but there are “no barriers” to using alternative app marketplaces and Google totally isn’t collecting a rent exactly like Apple. /s

No chance in hell the average consumer is doing this, so they are effectively locked in.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's just the idea. In reality, most people only install apps from Google Play, and Google has decided that it also wants to enforce a 30% cut [1]. Sideloading provides an option, but for most developers, its not a realistic one (See: Epic putting Fortnite onto the Play Store after trying to get people to install by sideloading). [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/28/technology/google-play-st...

Sideloading amounts to downloading a .apk file and clicking yes on the prompt to install it. It's no more difficult than installing applications on Windows. I know firsthand that elementary school children are capable of sideloading apps. IIRC Google offered Epic more favorable rates after it released Fortnite through side loading. Presumably this indicates that sideloading was a success and Google didn't want Epic t…

> It's no more difficult than installing applications on Windows.

What's important is relative difficulty. If 99% of all apps the consumer can get are on the app store, but they have to go through a new and somewhat foreign side-loading process to get this one app, then they probably will just go for that app's competitor on the App store.

I'd be curious what percentage of Android users, outside of China, sideload apps. My guess is that it would be sub 3%.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#373
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only made a few chargebacks but each time it was really easy. I've never had to provide any sort of documentation and have gotten the money back quickly each time. The most recent time was with a company that wouldn't honor their refund policy. They were awfully rude over email so I made sure to take screenshots of the policy on their website in case they disputed the chargeback and/or changed the wording on the…

Where did you get your credit card? Name-and-shame is important when dealing with corporations, but so is name-and-praise for the few that actually work correctly.

Good idea. The card is through Chase. I've had the card for years and overall I haven't had any big problems.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Concretely about this post: it seems really naive! Proton Mail is not just an app. It's going to be up to the courts to re-affirm that a private party cannot force another party to give them profits of an unrelated product. These kinds of "deals" are partially what got the Teamsters in trouble and are characteristic of the criminal mobs (which included the mafia). "I heard you have a second job selling stocks, be a…

Apple is forcing something? What? Apple is giving Proton Mail the opportunity to come on to their platform and make more revenue. They are not forcing them on to their platform. If Apple didn’t exist, PM would simply not even have this opportunity. Mobs come into your business and demand revenue. Here proton mail is coming into Apple’s business and demanding revenue. Who’s the mob here? And yeah, word choice matters…

> Apple is forcing something? What?

Compelling via contractual agreement. This is typically referred to as "forcing" a conditiobn. Classic enforcement of a clause.

> Apple is giving Proton Mail the opportunity to come on to their platform and make more revenue.

No. That is not what Apple is granting PM. Me putting up a hello world app does not grant me an opportunity to make more (any) revenue. There are additional concerns and limitations.

> They are not forcing them on to their platform.

Correct.

> If Apple didn’t exist, PM would simply not even have this opportunity.

Incorrect. If Apple and Apple USERS didn't exist, PM would not be able to be utilized by those users from an Apple device (since nothing else is special about the platform). This is a matter of perspective which we fundamentally disagree on.

> Mobs come into your business and demand revenue.

That is one of many tactics.

> Here proton mail is coming into Apple’s business and demanding revenue.

Incorrect.

This is tiresome.

It's not really worth picking apart your statements when you are disingenuously starting from :

> if you want to be credible and taken seriously

Name calling and no-true-scotsman is all heresay or noise. The courts can (and eventually will) decide what is acceptable. Things are not looking good when a business starts squeezing blood from the stone (Apple's own market).

Good luck with whatever.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the opposite argument to what the problem is right now. It's not that IAP is bad, or that it shouldn't be available. It's that there's no alternative permitted in addition to Apple's IAP model. You're not even allowed to HINT at the fact that you might have alternative ways to pay for the things you want to pay for. Even if your name is hugeservicethateveryoneknows, you can't tell people that you have a websi…

This seems like a pretty large misreading of the situation. Yes, the most disagreeable thing about Apple's IAP policies is where they forbid links to alternative purchase pages. But it is also the smallest of the current complaints. It's not "additional" means of purchases many companies are pushing for. They want to be able to avoid offering Apple's IAP whatsoever. I mean, ProtonMail did not have IAP in their app at…

Wow. I was on ProtonMail’s website debating wherever to sign up for them or someone else. Decision made after reading this.

First, everyone techie enough to play Fortnite or consider ProtonMail knows full well that visiting a company’s website might offer other ways to sign up or pay, that apps are often limited by a hundred things. As they often are. Maybe the Gmail app should “hint” that you can see more emails of your inbox on your 27” monitor. Heck, maybe Google should try and sell you a bigger monitor instead of just letting people use the stupid app.

I’m definitely not going to give ProtonMail my American dollars if they are blasting Apple, a great American company, from their European roost. They can slip back into their obscurity. It’s these little bit players that have been embolden by Epic’s stupidity. They are all shooting themselves in the foot.

Others here are correct. I have to spend time researching cancellation methods BEFORE I sign up if not using IAP. Some companies are the devil.

But in ProtonMail’s case, I had no interest in signing via my phone. I only keep Apple-created apps on my phone. Sorry... too many other bad experiences over the years. Like apps sending my location to 3rd-party advertisers, or burning up my battery, or using up data. After 10 years with iPhones, I’ve not only learned that most apps are bloated junk, but even the “useful” ones are better accessed as a bookmark on Safari. Or not at all.

I’ve also learned that a smartphone is a portal to madness for most people so having just the basics for minimum life functionality is more than sufficient. The photo-editing apps, social media, weather apps, and whole categories of apps (games!) are pointless toward creation of a meaningful and healthy life.

Oh and that includes the thousands of “fitness” apps. Unless you’re a pro athlete (you’re not!), what the heck? Sleep apps, reading list apps, running apps... all designed to put a phone, the internet, and some company between you and a normal human activity that needs none of it.

The huge exception is Reddit. I hate that website but it occasionally comes up in search results. Click on it to your ultimate doom. It’s completely unusable. It should get an award for the first bulletin board site that is unreadable without a technical manual.

Apple should ban Reddit on Safari for being “nagware”. Just block that site. It’s useless.

These few bit players (well, and Epic) want their own App Store. Be careful what you wish for Epic, you might just get it. Let them have it, Apple and let all these bit players clamor to get on it and whine to Epic instead about all their “policies” and “pay rates”.

Meanwhile, Apple should make an iPhone called the iPhone Secure+ (based off the SE2).

Make it even smaller and lighter, even cheaper, waterproof and Caterpillar-like hardened materials, but here’s the kicker:

NO THIRD-PARTY APPS AT ALL!

In fact, maybe not even some of Apple’s! Who the heck uses Pages and Numbers on a 4-inch screen?

Just a phone that works for normal people who are busy. And it should be conspicuous and bold! Make it obvious to all that you have a personal phone that is just for a few utilitarian purposes and you’re not a dweeb who scrolls through Instagram, Tinder, or plays games on the toilet! It would be the conversation piece of this decade.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't ProtonMail do a web based mobile client?

You can't do a proper web app on iOS because Safari/Webkit doesn't support what you need to do it well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14864131 This wouldn't be a problem if you could install Firefox, Chrome, etc, but on iOS browsers can't use their engine... they're essentially Safari with a different skin on top. I think complaints from devs/services make less sense on Android. Almost everyone uses Google's P…

> "you can install an app manually like you do on your phone"

I meant computer, not phone.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that historically law enforcement and tax collection was essentially the mafia, the difference here is that the IRS is controlled by a democratic organization.

You might like to watch this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE

Do you have an understanding of the origins of private property? You do know that private property is a pure construct of the State, that the State was created because there was no other way to enforce private property, and that the State must exist as long private property exists, right?

I'm taking private property to mean any property that you don't actively use, so for example intellectual property, stocks, and capital writ large.

This is why the State has the right to seize property, because they are guarantor of the concept for property to begin with.

Ultimately, it is very valid to disagree with State enforcement of property and for the monopoly of violence, but the only logical conclusion for that is anarchism, in a sense that makes capitalism impossible.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#378
post #95
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am curious: what made it so difficult to cancel / unsubscribe? If you subscribed with a credit card, did the option of chargebacks ever come up? (Asking because these sorts of situations seem perfectly in line for disputing with your credit card provider.)

Chargebacks only delay the inevitable. If the card is still in use they'll simply try again at the next billing cycle. I had an Amazon subscription charge I could not track down for a year. Every month I would call Amazon, who's CSR couldn't find it, and then my bank to reverse the charge. Found out I had Amazon Premier still signed up on Amazon IT. The card worked globally but subscriptions displayed locally.

IIRC, each chargeback charges the merchant a nonrefundable $35 fee. So even if you get your $10 back, the person who took your money is out $45. If someone were to keep charging me after a chargeback was won in my favor, I’d just keep issuing more chargebacks to spite them. They also can only lose disputes so many times before Visa or MasterCard looks closer at them.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#379
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the EU consumer protection law mandate this. You have to be able to cancel in all the same ways that you can sign up. The most common way to pay subscriptions is with SEPA direct debit, and banks have to let you revoke those authorizations even retro-actively for 90 days.

I don’t think stopping automatic payments automatically cancels the subscription. It just stops the money flow, but keeps you liable for the payments. It means the company has to make an effort to get money flowing again, though. Many will know that’s not worth it and stop the service instead. (Corrections welcome)

But there are some who will let you accrue your debt over the years and then send you to collections.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#380
post #94
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am curious: what made it so difficult to cancel / unsubscribe? If you subscribed with a credit card, did the option of chargebacks ever come up? (Asking because these sorts of situations seem perfectly in line for disputing with your credit card provider.)

Chargebacks are way harder in real life than people think. It took me multiple calls, emailing evidence/screenshots, and months to get a $300 charge back processed. That was for a completely fraudulent charge at a bar. The way it was explained to me, banks will only process a chargeback when you have provided evidence of trying to contact the merchant and they refused to provide a refund and couldn’t show a valid con…

U-haul charged me three times for the same thing. I spent several hours on the phone with u-haul trying to get them to reverse it. Ultimately they said the agreed I was triple charged but they couldn't reverse it and I had to contact my bank

It took EIGHT MONTHS and SEVEN phone calls with my bank to get them to charge back. And haul fought me every step of the process when they're the ones that told me to go to my bank. U-haul went as far as to straight up lie to my bank. I'm surprised they didn't forge documents with all the shit they were trying

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