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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#441

Post by wbl »

thatjamesdude wrote: post #380
tripzilch wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what do you do if you are Apple? Nothing because Apple has ZERO, no place meddling in this business. Just hear yourself, "it's against the TOS" versus people on the streets trying to save their own country from a stolen election and a dictator?? OF COURSE the TOS of a tech company is completely irrelevant in this situation. TOS aren't even laws, they were just created by a profit driven corporation for legal pro…

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

When I was a kid the phone book came every year. It had the telephone numbers and addresses of just about everyone.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#442

Post by mentat »

thatjamesdude wrote: post #380
tripzilch wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what do you do if you are Apple? Nothing because Apple has ZERO, no place meddling in this business. Just hear yourself, "it's against the TOS" versus people on the streets trying to save their own country from a stolen election and a dictator?? OF COURSE the TOS of a tech company is completely irrelevant in this situation. TOS aren't even laws, they were just created by a profit driven corporation for legal pro…

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

There is no general case. The idea of the general case is fundamentally a tool of oppression. Human moral encounters and decisions are personal.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#443

Post by foepys »

qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #436
esperent wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When one side is an illegitimate government who stole an election, and the other side is millions of people fighting for democracy and freedom, possibly, just possibly, it's time to pick a side. Even if you're a huge amoral profit driven company who's fear of losing 0.1% of your profit precludes you from taking sides... Well, maybe just sit this one out?

So Apple is now in charge of deciding whether elections are legitimate? It's weird how people in this thread are zigzagging between saying Apple has too much corporate power and Apple needs much more. Does every country in the world really have to be a democracy? Remember how the Arab Spring turned out?

> So Apple is now in charge of deciding whether elections are legitimate?

Don't worry, Apple doesn't have to decide anything here. The US government already did.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#444

Post by dnh44 »

esperent wrote: post #428
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nothing because Apple has ZERO, no place meddling in this business. Not meddling means enforcing its TOS in an evenhanded way. Otherwise it's playing favorites.

When one side is an illegitimate government who stole an election, and the other side is millions of people fighting for democracy and freedom, possibly, just possibly, it's time to pick a side. Even if you're a huge amoral profit driven company who's fear of losing 0.1% of your profit precludes you from taking sides... Well, maybe just sit this one out?

How do you know the opposition would have won the election if not for the alleged cheating?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#445

Post by yrro »

toyg wrote: post #397
thatjamesdude wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

This is just beef with Telegram. That’s where the content is hosted. Apple as a distributor should have NO relevance to this. Apple is like a landlord who legally rented his shop to people who run it as a bar in which some people might meet to discuss protests. Should the police even call the landlord? Should the landlord act on this info?

But in this case Apple have a key to the front door of the bar and no one can enter the bar unless Apple let them. So should Apple lock the door if the police tell them to?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#446

Post by zelon88 »

I don't get why American companies seem to regularly align themselves with authority like this. Apple has more yearly profits than the GDP of Belarus. Why does Apple play by the rules of Belarus. Honestly, if I had the power and influence of Apple I'd run my business in these third world sections of the world just like I run them in America. Arguably Apple has more weight on people in these regions than local governments do.

Stand up and do what's right. You're an American company doing the bidding of a corrupt organization that's not even as big as you are. Grow a pair.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#447

Post by csallen »

esperent wrote: post #428
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nothing because Apple has ZERO, no place meddling in this business. Not meddling means enforcing its TOS in an evenhanded way. Otherwise it's playing favorites.

When one side is an illegitimate government who stole an election, and the other side is millions of people fighting for democracy and freedom, possibly, just possibly, it's time to pick a side. Even if you're a huge amoral profit driven company who's fear of losing 0.1% of your profit precludes you from taking sides... Well, maybe just sit this one out?

It seems very easy from the outside looking in to conclude that an organization should play judge and jury for external conflicts. But having run a small internet forum and occasionally being asked to resolve disputes, even trivial he-said she-said spats can be incredibly difficult to investigate and untangle.

I won't pretend I know what Apple should do here. But I certainly don't agree with the cavalier assertion that unrelated organizations need to confidently pick sides in moral and political battles. Just because you're so certain what the answer should be doesn't mean that you're right. And your lack of visibility and accountability means you risk much less when you quickly come to strong moral conclusions than do large organizations.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#448

Post by birdyrooster »

wbl wrote: post #441
thatjamesdude wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

When I was a kid the phone book came every year. It had the telephone numbers and addresses of just about everyone.

I’m pretty sure people were consenting to have their number listed there in their agreement with their Telco.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#449

Post by uzakov »

toyg wrote: post #397
thatjamesdude wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

This is just beef with Telegram. That’s where the content is hosted. Apple as a distributor should have NO relevance to this. Apple is like a landlord who legally rented his shop to people who run it as a bar in which some people might meet to discuss protests. Should the police even call the landlord? Should the landlord act on this info?

Depends on the rent contract.

If, as you say Apple is like a landlord, Apple can demand specific things in the contract (ie no pets) and the person renting needs to comply.

Not getting into the moral side of the argument of Apple Vs Telegram but want to point out that the landlord example isn't applicable in my opinion.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#450

Post by ethbr0 »

yrro wrote: post #445
toyg wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just beef with Telegram. That’s where the content is hosted. Apple as a distributor should have NO relevance to this. Apple is like a landlord who legally rented his shop to people who run it as a bar in which some people might meet to discuss protests. Should the police even call the landlord? Should the landlord act on this info?

But in this case Apple have a key to the front door of the bar and no one can enter the bar unless Apple let them. So should Apple lock the door if the police tell them to?

The only reason Apple has (the only) key to the front door is because they refused to give those keys to anyone else (including their property leasees) for "their own protection."
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