Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#311

Post by paulgb » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

torben-friis wrote: post #304

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or they could make Apple remove the telegram app. Which is effective primarily because there’s no (practical) way to sideload on iOS! This is why I’ve always seen the locked-down nature of the iPhone as a threat to free expression first and foremost. Apple is responsible for setting the system up this way.

I don't fully buy this idea, because I've never seen an app become successfully widespread through side loading. The technical friction is just too high for non technical users. I agree that we need a solution to monopolistic app stores though.

> I've never seen an app become successfully widespread through side loading

Isn't Fortnite on Android an example of this? It was in the Play store for a pariod, but IIRC it was not when it was first released and isn't there again after their spat with Google.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#312

Post by im3w1l » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #276

nickpp wrote: post #209

So it was fine when Apple banned Infowars but now it’s different? This is exactly what those free speech advocates meant when talking about slippery slopes: you either support free speech or censure. There is no middle ground. Disclaimer: I think Infowars is pure, evil sh*t.

> There is no middle ground. Pause this slippery slope argument for a second. The current situation in Belarus: - Protestors are being imprisoned by unidentified agents in unidentified vehicles - Protestors are being _tortured_ throughout nightly interrogations - Protest _organizers_ have been kidnapped overnight and hanged from trees to get the OMON's point across. This isn't a US politics disinformation twitter pin…

The reason people want guns and freedom of speech is because they anticipate these kinds of situations. With actual dictatorships and everything.

Similar to poker, it rarely goes all the way to showdown. But the possibility of showdown still shapes everything.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Post by immigrantsheep » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:16 PM UTC

foepys wrote: post #274

m3kw9 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure that country can force Apple to comply with local laws. That’s how it works now.

So if an app shows an image of two men kissing, Apple should order the app makers to take it down worldwide because it's illegal in Uganda?

This is a REALLY good argument

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Post by DaiPlusPlus » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:17 PM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #129

blazespin wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Telegram is a total nightmare. It's like bitcoin or Tor and dark web, it may facilitate anonymous free speech, but in doing so, it facilitates a helluva lot of crime. There has to be limits on freedom, you can't just be allowed to post bomb making plans on the internet or yelling fire in a crowded theatre

You may not know this but the fire in a crowded theater case was about criminalizing opposition to the draft during WWI. Criminalizing speech always ends with the powers that be using it to stop people saying things inconvenient to them. One year it’s Obama prosecuting whistleblowers, the next it’s Trump. Any power the government has will be used and “abused” almost immediately. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting…

> One year it’s Obama prosecuting whistleblowers, the next it’s Trump

I agree with you, but I hope you're not making a false-equivalence between Trump and Obama, or that the Obama administration's actions against free-speech had the same motivations - and lack of conscience - as the Trump administration's.

It would be much fairer to compare Bush Jr to Trump - it was under Bush Jr we got "free speech zones", for example.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#315

Post by toxik » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

foepys wrote: post #274

m3kw9 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure that country can force Apple to comply with local laws. That’s how it works now.

So if an app shows an image of two men kissing, Apple should order the app makers to take it down worldwide because it's illegal in Uganda?

FAANG etc have been kowtowing to oppressive regimes for well over a decade, did you not get the memo? Profit decides, not ethics.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#316

Post by hyperdimension » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #128

jb1991 wrote: post #86

The 1984 metaphor is frequently cited as a great irony here. It’s a well-known theme however, consider Game of Thrones: a dragon queen frees the oppressed of the world with a movement to make all the societies a better place, until it is revealed that she’s actually just power-hungry and wants to control it all, even if it means destroying it all. Sometimes you have to wait to the end to put the beginning motivations…

Consider also that we get only two points of view on Oceania: Goldstein and Smith. Goldstein's analytic exposition seems to indicate a sound head on his shoulders, and to double check his claims[1], we may verify that nearly everything he writes is, with minor adjustments, applicable to our world as well as to his. Smith[2], on the other hand, shows signs of paranoid delusions[3] and narcissism[4] up through chapter…

I just wanted to thank you for this comment. I've read 1984 several times, but I'm no literary scholar, and I've never seem to have been all that successful at 'reading between the lines.'

That being said, whenever I read an analysis like yours, it almost always does seem to make sense. You've given me a lot more insight into the book, so thank you.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#317

Post by oxymoran » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

newbie578 wrote: post #305

foepys wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if an app shows an image of two men kissing, Apple should order the app makers to take it down worldwide because it's illegal in Uganda?

You state an excellent point and I would love to see the Apple fanboys argue your point.

I love how people say Apple fanboys like it’s an insult. Is there a legitimate, better option to apple? No because the smartphone market is dominated by google and apple. At least apple pretends to care about privacy. Yes, apple are obviously hypocrites. Still better than google. If there was another viable choice I would happily go with that.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Post by hamilyon2 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

ghostcluster wrote: post #34

john_minsk wrote: post #10

I'm from Belarus. Honestly, I'm surprised Apple gives a shit. Now I'm worried that Apple can cooperate with local police in case they make inquiry. Am I safe? Here is the link to one group that uses ML to de-anonymize people: https://youtu.be/FAJIrnphTFg

You've got to just hope that Apple realizes how bad this would blow up in their face if they worked with police in Belarus to identify democratic protestors, especially given their emphasis on "privacy" in their marketing.

Android makers and telegram could make huge PR/marketing campaign out of this.

I mean huge. Outdoor posters and slogans. TV shows.

I mean, this is truly Orwellian stuff, but in real world. Old uncharismatic dictator recruits huge soulless machine of most powerful corporation in the world to rule small poor country. I know this is not entirely true, but people will love this.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#319

Post by eplanit » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

latexr wrote: post #259

Tim Cook’s twitter bio[1] has the following: > “Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'” - MLK Considering this and the HKmap.live[2] situations, I’d say that in his case the answer to that question is “not much”. [1]: https://twitter.com/tim_cook [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKmap.live

Maybe Tim Cook uses that quote to signal virtue and gain popularity for his own and the company brand. Haven't Apple ads used MLK before?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#320

Post by nmstoker » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

It seems a surprise Apple and Telegram can't find a better compromise from a global perspective. Bear in mind they're being pushed around by a country of just 9.5m people.