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If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

commondreams.org

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Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels very arbitrary to claim the employees responsible got the gains. Like take Walmart, the biggest beneficiaries by far are the relatives of Sam Walton. Yet they did nothing to build the automated inventory tracking, the statistical modeling, or the digital systems. Or take the programmers who worked on Walmart.com. They didn't invent the transistor, Linux, or Java. They just used them to build a crud app.

Yes fair enough. This is why every employee should get paid _stock/rsu/whatever_. The rewards of efficiency gains that Walmart, the enterprise makes, should be shared by the people who made it happen. But then again, not many people would prefer to take that risk and instead prefer to get paid a set hourly wage. Of course, it’s a matter of balance — how much guaranteed income vs. risky income does a person want? I do…

What if the minimum wage also included x stock per paycheck? Minimum stock options?

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is self-fulfilling. There is a claim that CEOs are well paid because they're in high demand. The truth is that it's actually difficult to find someone who will work for minimum wage in a In-n-Out burger in San Jose. It's easy to find a dozen qualified candidates for CEO - hell, half of them are CEOs at similar smaller companies and the other half are CxOs/SVPs at the company you're hiring for. The myth is that y…

> The myth is that you need some massive salary to attract the best, whereas what actually happens is you hire who you would've hired anyway, but you pay them a massive premium . Microsoft’s market capitalization has more than doubled during Satya Nadella’s tenure as CEO. When Steve Ballmet quit as CEO the market cap jumped over $100 million. That kind of difference is why companies pay extremely well for top CEO tal…

My takeaway is that Steve Ballmer was paid million of dollars despite being worth negative $100m to MSFT.

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if they had kept up since 1949, minimum wage would be $4.22 an hour. Two can play the game of cherrypicking troughs and peaks. This is just wrong: the article is not talking about inflation; it is talking about indexing the minimum wage to productivity. Eyeballing the graph from the original article (and projecting productivity back to 1949), if indexed to productivity, then minimum wage would be at ~$15. Your…

> The productivity of any individual worker is determined not just by their skills and technology, but also by the institutional structure we put in place. Could you expand on this a bit?

I'm not the original author of the article, but I try my best: the article argues that public policy has affected wages, in many case negatively for lower paid workers.

For example, free trade has undoubtedly lowered the cost of commodities for Americans, but at the same time has also cost manufacturing jobs. From a monetary perspective, there is no contention that America as a whole is richer because of free trade. But where has that wealth gone? Not much to the now-jobless manufacturing workers.

The economics profession deserves some blame. When evaluating a policy, economists often ask whether there society would reap a net benefit in "utility." But chiefly, economists often ignore questions about distribution -- which groups should benefit from policy? One reason might be because answers to distribution questions could be seen as "political" -- if you think labor should receive compensation for lost wages due to free trade, then people will question whether "leftist" politics biased your thinking.

Indeed, economics has a special name for changes that benefit society on net at the expense of another group of people -- a "Kaldor-Hicks improvement." A change is a Kaldor-Hicks improvement if the people made better off could, in theory, fully compensate those made worse off and still come out ahead. In practice, that compensation usually never happens. Uwe Reinhardt, who was an economics professor at Princeton, writes an absurd satirization of policies justified by the Kaldor-Hicks criterion:

> To highlight the tenuous ethical foundation of Kaldor's criterion, one might call it the unrequited-punch-in-the-nose criterion of social welfare. Suppose, for example, that I feel very aggressive today and therefore would like to punch you in the nose. An honest referee (an economist) asks me what 1 would be willing to pay for that privilege. Suppose the maximum I'd be willing to pay were $1,000. Next, the honest referee asks you how much you would have to be paid to receive that punch in the nose without hitting me back. Because you are strapped for cash, you might accept the punch for $600. The referee (our economist) is ecstatic, for (s)he perceives here the opportunity to enhance social welfare. Consequently, the deal is struck, you kindly present your precious nose, I punch, you bleed and hold out your hand in anticipation of my payment of $1,000. Alas, I walk away happily, along with my $1,000, which I refuse to surrender. Not to worry. The honest referee (our economist) will soothe you with the expert assurance that, according to Nicholas Kaldor, and in principle, we just have witnessed a major enhancement in social welfare, to the tune of $400, even though the expected $1,000 bribe is not actually paid. It is to be hoped that you have enough respect for the referee to accept this verdict gracefully, and you probably will, if you accept the benefit-cost analyses typically sold by economists to policy makers.

> Although this illustration may seem beastly and absurd, it can easily be adapted, with only minor modifications, to the context of environmental pollution, to health care or to many other situations in which public policy bestows benefits upon one group of people at the expense of others. One is struck by how readily and how uncritically many economists apply the Kaldorian criterion to their analyses of such policies -- particularly younger economists, many of whom no longer seem to explore very carefully the philosophical and ethical underpinnings of their profession and instead concentrate on mere analytic technique. [1]

(The whole paper is worth reading.)

So this is what the author might be criticising -- that policies have been evaluated mostly with consideration to whether society as a "whole" would benefit, with not much thought about who exactly benefits. Add to that the marginal utility of money -- that poorer people see a greater increase in happiness per dollar than the richer people -- and you could argue that those policies have caused a group of people, namely menial laborers, to experience significantly increased hardship than those nearer to the top of the economic ladder. The author's goal, then is to justify the "compensation" portion of a Kaldor-Hicks improvement -- according to them, wealth, wages, and healthcare should be redistributed to these workers who were made worse off -- at the benefit of everyone else.

[1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/40239382?seq=1

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or take the programmers who worked on Walmart.com. They didn't invent the transistor, Linux, or Java. They just used them to build a crud app. Likewise, the shelf stockers who work at Walmart didn't invent pasteurization, the tin can, or the grocery cart. They just move the cans around. What does that have to do with the fact that programmers contribute (on an ongoing basis) to improved productivity, while shelf st…

My point is that it is somewhat arbitrary who captures the value, and it is not always clear who produces the value. Say a grocery store is stocking at twice the rate they did 40 years ago because they have an app. Is the guy who wrote the app responsible for all the increased productivity? Not really, writing the app was fairly trivial compared to inventing the transistor, the operating system, and the programming l…

I propose a thought experiment.

Assume the app was developed in the past five years. Replay the last five years twice, with different circumstances: Once without the shelf stocker, and once without the programmer. In one case, the increased productivity still appears, in the other, it does not.

It seems to me that the person who is required for the addition of the increased productivity caused the increased productivity, while the person who is not required for it did not.

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trickle down economics has created one of the greatest rifts in wealth equality in history. Yet people like the GP still champion the concept and its variants. I earn fantastically at work, but any vote I make will always be against the political party that spouts the same nonsense.

"Trickle down economics" did not cause that, a massive regulatory complex that protects incumbent monopolies did. An extensive rollback of regulatory complexity or a small business safe harbor exemption from everything but the critical health & safety pieces along with a Henry George land tax would solve our impasse. These are, sadly, not very popular policies. The most durable way to build middle class wealth is ent…

There are a lot of reasons small businesses are dead, and regulation is not one of them. The US regulatory structure is extremely friendly to small businesses.

Small businesses are rare because the government has abdicated its antitrust responsibilities, ignoring companies that use anticompetitive practices like labor violations and price fixing that lock competitors out of the market.

Small businesses are also rare because of zoning codes and infrastructure policies that promote the use of cars. It used to be that commercial spaces and housing were evenly mixed, now businesses often need to be a mile or more away from anywhere people live, thus needing to be able to support very large customer bases, and the locations need enough land to fit empty parking lots big enough to support double or triple the actual capacity of the building itself, creating enormous artificial up-front capital costs for business ownership.

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#416
post #382
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just amend the Federal Arbitration Act to deny the use of arbitration as a tool to suppress legitimate use of the courts to address remedies. In the meantime create a tool to allow for mass arbitration actions.

How would you "amend the Federal Arbitration Act to deny the use of arbitration as a tool to suppress legitimate use of the courts to address remedies"? Do you just want to get rid of mandatory arbitration? That sounds like repealing the FAA and replacing it with its mirror image.

Forbid mandatory arbitration for b2c and b2smb

Or forbid it entirely.

What exactly is the problem with writing a law to stop an abusive practice?

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#417
post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to stop saying a company and instead use the name of the person or persons actually setting Tami up for this. AT&T and Arise are not people. People made these decisions and put Tami in this position. We should use their names.

Well, I think AT&T and Arise actually are people , they're just not individuals . But getting to the core of your point, how would you allocate blame? Is the CEO responsible for every mistake? Do you part it out to various levels of management, based on their involvement with this specific case? Do you think it's better if more corporations copy Google's approach, and outsource all the low-wage work to avoid bring bl…

> Do you part it out to various levels of management, based on their involvement with this specific case?

In general with larger corporations this feels like it makes the most sense. With resources like LinkedIn it should be a lot easier to determine the person or person(s) in charge of these decisions along with the CEO.

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trickle down economics" did not cause that, a massive regulatory complex that protects incumbent monopolies did. An extensive rollback of regulatory complexity or a small business safe harbor exemption from everything but the critical health & safety pieces along with a Henry George land tax would solve our impasse. These are, sadly, not very popular policies. The most durable way to build middle class wealth is ent…

There are a lot of reasons small businesses are dead, and regulation is not one of them. The US regulatory structure is extremely friendly to small businesses. Small businesses are rare because the government has abdicated its antitrust responsibilities, ignoring companies that use anticompetitive practices like labor violations and price fixing that lock competitors out of the market. Small businesses are also rare…

> US regulatory structure is extremely friendly to small businesses

Try cutting hair in Florida if you think so.

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an other issue here: Evans bootstrapped herself by getting a (relevant) degree. The spreadsheet story is nice, but even having these skills back in the 80's was way less common than today. The article should also have looked at how much tuition was relative to the cost of living/salary Evans was making, and if Ramos could afford it today.

Did you read the whole article? > Evans was a full-time employee of Kodak. She received more than four weeks of paid vacation per year, reimbursement of some tuition costs to go to college part time, and a bonus payment every March. When the facility she cleaned was shut down, the company found another job for her: cutting film. She was able to bootstrap her career at least in part because Kodak offered tuition reimb…

> Did you read the whole article?

I did.

What I would be curious to read is an accountant taking a look at Ramos finances and figuring out how she could afford (or not) to get the same degree.

Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour

#420
post #251
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it raises rents. California rents can be traced back to prop 13, for instance. Prop 13 wasn't run on a platform of raising rents, was it?

As bad as Prop 13 is for California, it's silly to put the whole blame on high rents on it. It's enough to note that rents are high in NYC, Boston, DC, and Seattle, and none of these places have Prop 13. If you can have skyrocketing rents without Prop 13, why would you think that it's Proposition 13 that's bearing the whole blame in California?

I wasn't putting the whole blame on it. I was citing it as one example.

And, Boston, NY, etc. rents are NOT as high as San Fran.

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