Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#371

Post by galfarragem » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 8:42 AM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #91

Heterodox explanation: > ”Nothing in Europe,” notes Jamil Ragep, a professor of the history of science at the University of Oklahoma, “could hold a candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600.” Before the portuguese (1498-1974?) and the spanish (1492-1976?) overseas empires, the arab world was in the middle of the prime trade routes between asia and europe. Afterwards, their status as middleman…

> Science happens where there are rich people; rich people happen where there are bottlenecks in trade.

It can't be that simple. How do you fit there, for example, russian space exploration?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#372

Post by hhas01 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 8:57 AM UTC

kmeisthax wrote: post #196

pjc50 wrote: post #13

> "We will turn to this question later, but it is important to keep in mind that the decline of scientific activity is the rule, not the exception, of civilizations. While it is commonplace to assume that the scientific revolution and the progress of technology were inevitable, in fact the West is the single sustained success story out of many civilizations with periods of scientific flourishing. Like the Muslims, th…

>Why not the Middle East? Well, when your region of the world has been torn asunder by everything, including colonial powers, fascist reactionaries and nationalists, liberal market economies, and international communism; the only remaining cultural artifact that you can call your own is religion. If you want to unify the Middle East, you have to do so under the guise of religion, and in practice that means conservati…

“Iran is sort of a microcosm of this: they deliberately adopted theocracy as any form of secular government or economy was viewed as surrender to one's oppressors.”

Iran had a secular, democratic government. It was overthrown by the UK and US who installed a brutal dictatorship just so they could get their oil cheap, so you can kind of see how Iranians might conclude that “democracy” isn’t worth the paper it’s written on and the only defense is a bigger bunch of bastards than the other guys’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#373

Post by kwhitefoot » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:12 AM UTC

JPLeRouzic wrote: post #200

082349872349872 wrote: post #91

Heterodox explanation: > ”Nothing in Europe,” notes Jamil Ragep, a professor of the history of science at the University of Oklahoma, “could hold a candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600.” Before the portuguese (1498-1974?) and the spanish (1492-1976?) overseas empires, the arab world was in the middle of the prime trade routes between asia and europe. Afterwards, their status as middleman…

> As they say in the asteroid belt: na desh walowda walowda peyeting; imim na xunyam sasating? That's a language which is still missing in Google's translator.

Google Translate auto-detect claims it is Igbo. But it can't translate it.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#374

Post by AlexSW » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:27 AM UTC

mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

It goes on to talk about its usage of "Arabic science" at the beginning of the second section.

"A preliminary caution must be taken about both parts of the term “Arabic science.” This is, first, because the scientists discussed here were not all Arab Muslims. Indeed, most of the greatest thinkers of the era were not ethnically Arab. This is not surprising considering that, for several centuries throughout the Middle East, Muslims were a minority (a trend that only began to change at the end of the tenth century). The second caution about “Arabic science” is that it was not science as we are familiar with it today.[...]"

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#375

Post by webmobdev » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:48 AM UTC

connectsnk wrote: post #215

webmobdev wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than all of this - the key is political leaders. Visionary political leaders make or break their country or end civilizations. Both India and America are witnessing this currently with their respective elected right-wing "leaders" in Narendra Modi and Donald Trump. In India Astrology is now being treated as a Science and the Modi government is considering allowing alternate medicine (Ayurveda / Homeopathy / Unan…

This seems like overstating the facts to support your own views. Can you please tell which recently enacted laws treat Astrology as a Science?

It's not a recently enacted law - propagating it as scientific was set in force in 2001 by the then BJP HRD Minister Murli Manohar Joshi, who asked the UGC (by then filled with RSS religious fundamentalists) to fund BSc and MSc courses in Astrology. It was challenged legally but the courts refused to overturn the decision of the UGC. It was challenged again in courts in 2011, but it did not succeed.

- https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/08/astr-a16.html - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Astrology-is-a-sci...

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#376

Post by webmobdev » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:58 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #191

webmobdev wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than all of this - the key is political leaders. Visionary political leaders make or break their country or end civilizations. Both India and America are witnessing this currently with their respective elected right-wing "leaders" in Narendra Modi and Donald Trump. In India Astrology is now being treated as a Science and the Modi government is considering allowing alternate medicine (Ayurveda / Homeopathy / Unan…

Of course rulers can have a huge influence, but I think what differentiates the modern scientific enterprise from past models is that it's not dependent on the whims of individual rulers. It just has so much established momentum and support. Modi may well promote nonsense, but the institutions of higher education and science in India still exist and have enough prestige and social and economic momentum that I believe…

Oh ok, I understand your point now - you view the scientific establishment as an institution too, similar to the other independent democratic institutions like the legislature, executive, judiciary etc.

I agree that as long as the institution is strong, it will prevail. But I don't agree with you that they can prevail independent of the political leaders in charge.

Perhaps our differing preception is because even though Trump seems to have a similiar retrogade and dictatorial mentality like Modi, western institutions - both democratic and scientific - seem to have withstood an attack on it by the Trump administration. But in India they have been nearly subjugated in the last 20 years or so.

In fact, it was the University Grants Commission - one of the highest body in India that decides on education - then filled with religious fundamentalists, that proposed the funding of BSc and MSc courses in Astrology and treating is as Science, on the urging of the right-wing government in power in 2001.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#377

Post by webmobdev » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:03 AM UTC

wobbly_bush wrote: post #323

webmobdev wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the Mongols destroyed the Islamic empire. All that's in the past, and it feels good to live in the imagined glory of the past - but what's the excuse today for us indians when our idiot Prime Minister Narendra Modi claims that ancient India had nuclear weapons, aeroplanes and spacecraft and did inter-species head transplant by citing religious mythology as the proof for it? Or when his government wants to promote…

Reducing the problems to one person/party is disingenuous. In recent history we have data on all major political parties and their work on improving the scientific ecosystem. The problem is much deeper than one person.

In today's India the problem is only the retrogade and dictatorial mentality of PM Narendra Modi. Umpteen examples exist for it.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#378

Post by feralimal » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:35 AM UTC

kalenx wrote: post #354

feralimal wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, post a video of you doing that. Or someone else's. If you think I will refute it whatever the case, what can I do? I can only say that I will watch in good faith. If, as you seem to suggest, I do see issues with the video and evidence, and you don't, what does that tell you about your threshold for the acceptance of what is presented as true to you?

Sure, here's the first youtube result I got: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQaYLbsl33g > I can only say that I will watch in good faith. You won't. > If, as you seem to suggest, I do see issues with the video and evidence, and you don't, what does that tell you about your threshold for the acceptance of what is presented as true to you? Of course my threshold of acceptance is lower than yours! This whole discussion…

I watched it.

Issues I have with the video you provided. I can't believe that this passes muster with you as a scientist.

I can't help but notice the gas he creates at first is white in colour. In the second the gas is clear in colour. Both white and colourless gas are the same apparently. The difference in colour is not explained.

In the second experiment, Brian Cox says he is using hydrogen + AIR (not oxygen). Air is apparently 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, and argon + trace gases are the rest. This is to say, this is not mixing oxygen + hydrogen. So this experiment is NOT what I was asking evidence of.

Finally, he creates an explosive pop and some condensation appears on the glass jar. Let's accept that this liquid is water. What's to say that the water isn't simply water that was already in vapour form in the air that condensed against the glass?

And why do we need flame to ignite the gases? Is it really true that fire creates water? Is that a joke?

And do we really think that the ratio of 2 particle of hydrogen to 1 of oxygen was met? It was hardly a rigorous measurement, was it?

Overall, no, I did not see and experiment where pure hydrogen and pure oxygen where combined to make water. Do you think you did? To me, its all inference, hearsay and claim.

If this is all the evidence you need, yes, I think your threshold is too low.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#379

Post by webmobdev » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:37 AM UTC

wobbly_bush wrote: post #326

webmobdev wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than all of this - the key is political leaders. Visionary political leaders make or break their country or end civilizations. Both India and America are witnessing this currently with their respective elected right-wing "leaders" in Narendra Modi and Donald Trump. In India Astrology is now being treated as a Science and the Modi government is considering allowing alternate medicine (Ayurveda / Homeopathy / Unan…

The period from 1947-2014 didn't really lead to major improvements in scientific ecosystems, apart from creation of few educational institutes (IITs, IISc). The left-wing governments weren't much better. The problem is much deeper than a simplistic left-wing vs right-wing debate.

> The period from 1947-2014 didn't really lead to major improvements in scientific ecosystems, apart from creation of few educational institutes (IITs, IISc).

And I guess institutions like:

Defence Research and Development Organisations (DRDO), Indian Space Research Organisation, Baba Atomic Resarch Centre, Hindustan Aeronautical Limited, Defence Research and Development Laboratories, Ordnance Factory Board Council of Scientific and Industrial Research‎, Indian Institutes of Science Education and Research‎, Central Institute for Cotton Research, Central Institute of Medicinal and Aromatic Plants, Central Research Institute for Dryland Agriculture, Central Sheep and Wool Research Institute, Central Soil Salinity Research Institute, Centre for Sustainable Agriculture, Indian Agricultural Research Institute, Indian Institute of Food Processing Technology, Indian Institute of Horticultural Research, Indian Institute of Millets Research, Indian Institute of Natural Resins and Gums, Indian Institute of Plantation Management, Indian Institute of Soil Science, National Academy of Agricultural Research Management, National Academy of Agricultural Sciences, National Dairy Research Institute, National Sugar Institute, Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute, Tamil Nadu Rice Research Institute, Central Institute of Indian Languages, All India Institute of Hygiene and Public Health, Sree Chitra Tirunal Institute for Medical Sciences and Technology, National Centre for Disease Control, National Institute for Research in Reproductive Health,, National Institute for Research in Tuberculosis, National Institute of Biomedical Genomics, National Institute of Cholera and Enteric Diseases, National Institute of Epidemiology, National Institute of Immunology, India, National Institute of Malaria Research, National Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences, National Institute of Virology, National Research Institute for Panchakarma, National Tuberculosis Institute, Neurobiology Research Centre, Homi Bhabha Cancer Hospital & Research Centre, Indian Veterinary Research Institute, Advanced Research Centre for Bamboo and Rattan, Agumbe Rainforest Research Station, Arid Forest Research Institute, Jawaharlal Nehru Tropical Botanic Garden and Research Institute, Rain Forest Research Institute, Tropical Forest Research Institute, Himalayan Forest Research Institute, Centre for Forest Based Livelihood and Extension, Centre for Forestry Research and Human Resource Development, Centre for Social Forestry and Eco-Rehabilitation, Indian Council of Forestry Research and Education, Indian Council of Historical Research, Indian Council of Social Science Research, Indian Diamond Institute, Indian Initiative in Gravitational-wave Observations, Indian Institute of Science, Indian Institute of Sindhology, Indian Social Institute, Indian Social Institute, Bangalore, National Academy of Sciences, India, National Brain Research Centre, National Centre for Cell Science, National Centre for Polar and Ocean Research, National Institute of Ayurveda, National Institute of Hydrology, National Institute of Science Education and Research, National Institutes of Pharmaceutical Education and Research, Research Design and Standards Organisation, Xavier Institute of Social Service

emerged after 2014?? /s India didn't even have the technology to manufacture a safety pin when the British left India. Today India is one of the few countries in the world that has mastered medical, nuclear, space, missile, defence and agricultural sciences to be among the few countries that is self-sufficient in these areas. And that is because of the scientific temperement of the past indian government.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#380

Post by feralimal » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:48 AM UTC

kalenx wrote: post #357

feralimal wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mis-representing what I'm saying. I'm saying people are relaying information as if it was true and that they had verified it, when they haven't. Its hearsay, gossip. Or even, lying. I don't say check every case. That's impossible. I'm saying be a bit clearer about what you know and what you believe. Don't say 'I know' when you haven't verified whatever it is. To say you do, is in fact, a type of lie. You are…

Sure, prepend all your sentences by "The evidence that I have seen indicates" if it makes you happy. It changes nothing about the fact that knowledge exists even if you can personally experience it using solely your senses. I know that we've been to the Moon (do you?) although I wasn't even born when this happened.

Were you born yesterday? :)

Knowledge is certain. If there is a possibility that some claim could be wrong, it is only a hypothesis. And that's perfectly fine. Call that knowledge if you like, but you are over-stating your case. Lying in fact.

The reality is that we have far less knowledge than we think. We may be aware of lots of hypotheses, we can have knowledge of hypotheses. But this is not knowledge of the thing being hypothesised about.

You think you have knowledge when you don't. And I say, if you are unaware of your ignorance, and in fact erroneously believe yourself to be knowledgeable, you are in a state worse than ignorance. You only have beliefs, but you think they are knowledge. This is to say, you are guilty of magical thinking. And that is the essence of religion.

Hence why I say, religion and science are the same thing at core - its all belief. Adherents to each believe they have knowledge, but this belief is without proof. In a way scientists are worse as they are convinced they do have the truth, and are determined to righteously inflict their truths on everyone else! They are far from humble. Its pretty irritating!

All the best.