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Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

thenewatlantis.com

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Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#91

Post by 082349872349872 »

Heterodox explanation:

> ”Nothing in Europe,” notes Jamil Ragep, a professor of the history of science at the University of Oklahoma, “could hold a candle to what was going on in the Islamic world until about 1600.”

Before the portuguese (1498-1974?) and the spanish (1492-1976?) overseas empires, the arab world was in the middle of the prime trade routes between asia and europe. Afterwards, their status as middleman was increasingly cut out (especially once the dutch and then british got into the maritime empire game).

Science happens where there are rich people; rich people happen where there are bottlenecks in trade.

As they say in the asteroid belt: na desh walowda walowda peyeting; imim na xunyam sasating?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#93

Post by feralimal »

w0utert wrote: post #78
feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

I don't agree with your final conclusion, but I upvoted this regardless, because I think it is an interesting perspective that is worthwhile to philosophize on. If the Covid-19 situation taught me anything, it would be that it's apparently very, very easy to convince the vast majority of the population they need behave, think and feel in some way, based on 'facts' and figures that are unproven, incomplete, out-of-con…

Thank you. I always get heavily downvoted as I don't think others are as open minded to hearing a different viewpoint as you.

I agree too. But, I see science as an individual's pursuit. I really mean it when I say that science is something one should verify personally. Whenever you don't do that, you are accepting a story - without testing you cannot know anything, it is all in the realm of belief.

And you are right that most belief whether it is science/magic/religion its all the same thing. They want to naively trust and have faith. It would be endearing if it wasn't also susceptible to meaning that they can be lead as a herd. As an individual, it is very hard to stand against the herd. Whether that is avoiding being drowned as a witch, or being forced to vaccinate oneself for the good of the herd.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#94

Post by eternalban »

Muslim science is not Arab science. Muslim world is not Arab world. In general, Muslim =/= Arab, and Arab =/= Muslim. However, Arabs do spend quite a lot of money in various quarters and apparently are deep into a cultural appropriation program of denuding all other Muslim nations of their substantial claims (more than actual Arab scientists) to “Islam’s Golden Age”.

> Indeed, most of the greatest thinkers of the era were not ethnically Arab.

Yet the author perversely chooses to call it Arab science, and Arab Golden Age.

He then puts forward a completely unsupported theory that this is because “for several centuries throughout the Middle East, Muslims were a minority”.

Let’s follow Hillel’s tortured logic here:

- Most of Muslim thinkers of Muslim Golden Age were not Arabs.

- This is because Muslims were a minority in Middle East.

- Thus we need “caution” before we go ahead and call them Arab Scientists.

It is also necessary to correct Hillel’s implicit that most “Arab Scientists” were non-Muslim non-Arabs. The fact remains that most of these non-Arabs were Muslims.

Hillel is invited to offer a list of non-Muslim “great thinkers” of the era.

Arab money is making a mess in all sort of places. But it will not be permitted to mess with the history and heritage of the Muslim nations.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#95

Post by throwaway738 »

nradov wrote: post #76
xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

Faith based, other than the dead people.

And the NYE party I host is also made up of billionaires on average if Bezos shows up.

Also, 0.35% means that if everyone in the US contracts it that's a million dead people. And that's only from the disease.

Millions more will die because of the medical resources tied up with taking care of the sick and those who don't die. Arguably, more people will die because of the one person who takes up 20 days of ER resources and survives COVID than the person who shows up and dies of COVID on the first day.

Which is exactly what happened in the hotspots which were hit first and hard in Europe and North America.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#96

Post by mrwnmonm »

sumedh wrote: post #88
mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

> had no problem working with dictators who are the main reason for the decline of scientific study in the region. If you get rid of the dictator you end up like Iraq and Libya after Saddam and Gaddafi were removed. Its better to deal with the devil you know.

Nonsense, Egypt had a democratic elected president (which I didn't support), who won in a fair elections.

And it is very funny that you mentioned two countries which the US were responsible for their destruction.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#97

Post by feralimal »

simonh wrote: post #77
feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

This is flat out not true, every child that studies science in high school, all the way through to degree level in University personally goes through all the logical chains of thought, experimentation and verification of the ideas and principles they learn. We read how Newton derived the laws of motion and measure the periods of swinging weights hanging on strings, we measure the pressure of a gas as it varies with c…

Sorry - but you verify very little at school. It is an indoctrination system. IMO.

Feel free to provide a specific example though, where you verified something at school.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#98

Post by kalenx »

nradov wrote: post #76
xvilka wrote: post #18

> There's always the risk that the West might internally reject the scientific revolution This risk is real. Just see how many American citizens rejecting medical science in times of pandemic.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

It's not disappointing to see humans caring for others. There's a difference between "panicking over the disease" and wanting our elder people (for which the IFR is way over 0.35%) to be safe. Notwithstanding the fact that this 0.35% cannot possibly be achieved if the health system collapses.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#99

Post by 29athrowaway »

pjc50 wrote: post #13

> "We will turn to this question later, but it is important to keep in mind that the decline of scientific activity is the rule, not the exception, of civilizations. While it is commonplace to assume that the scientific revolution and the progress of technology were inevitable, in fact the West is the single sustained success story out of many civilizations with periods of scientific flourishing. Like the Muslims, th…

The point that marks the end of the Islamic Golden Age is the Siege of Baghdad of 1258.

As the Mongols expanded, each time they encountered an empire, they offered them two alternatives: a) Pay tribute to the Mongols, b) War with the Mongols and their vassal nations.

The caliphate chose the war option, unaware of the true military strength of the Mongols, who they considered primitive barbarians. The result was the complete destruction of the empire, their infrastructure including libraries, and the death of most scholars.

However, parts of Spain were under Islamic control from 711 AD to 1492 AD, and Sicily from 878 AD to 1060 AD. It was there were books from Islamic libraries were translated to Latin, giving origin to the European Reinassance.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#100

Post by chewz »

mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

> I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it...

Yeh, that sums up the the article pretty well

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