Earlier quoted context omitted.
All these comparisons miss one thing: after WWII America had a monopoly. We had destroyed our competitors factories in Asia as well as in Europe. It took a while for them to build back and be truly competitive outside their home countries. Here in Michigan we had a front row seat to this happening with manufacturing. Everything peaked in 1973 and has been on a slow decline ever since. Sure there have been booms but t…
Hi from Scandinavia, we dont have a monopoly on anything, and no actual minimum wage, yet people make about $20+ at the lowest paying jobs, enjoy 5 weeks paid vacation, free healthcare and cheap childcare..
If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
401–410 of 451 posts
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#402I don't know what fraction of the relative decline in real wages that makes up, but it is definitely significant.
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#403Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not only that, but you can draw collaborators from the entire world, and even get investment capital from the globe (like kickstarter, etc.). I remember when I wanted to sell in France, I had to find a French distributor, make a French version of the product, guess how many would sell there, ship a pile to the distributor, the distributor collects most of the money, and unsold merchandise is scrapped. If I didn't hav…
> Today, I ship all over the world via the internet for $0, have no stock, no scrap, no middlemen, get paid instantly, ship instantly, and the transaction cost is 1% for paypal and 3% for credit cards. This all true, and empowering for those who have the relevant know-how and opportunities. However, these apparent efficiencies are built on the back of the factors that GP points out. Empowerment for some relies on str…
I've seen many guides to doing this in the form of blogs. This is not hard information to come by.
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#404Earlier quoted context omitted.
Productivity has nothing to do with wages. If you worked 4 hours writing a book by hand or 4 hours writing a book on a computer with spell check, you were more productive but it has nothing to do with skill of the user but the technology of the time. Another example is in the 90s only rich has cell phones, now everyone Does, does that mean everyone is now rich? Quality of life is vastly better for the world now.
You should read an economics textbook, then come back and tell me again with a straight face that productivity doesn't affect wages. You don't seem to have an understanding of the issues, and your examples are so irrelevant as to be not even wrong. Roughly, the way it "should" work is that if Company A and Company B are in the same industry, and Company A is more productive than Company B, free market forces cause Co…
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
Labor in the top 1% is still labor was my point. I never argued that inequality doesn't exist or didn't get worse. I just think the capital vs labor rhetoric is a distraction. Edit: Also, from the link, this is very fishy to me. You could argue the medical benefits they exclude aren't meaningful because of healthcare inflation not being linked to better health outcomes. You can't make that argument for capital gains.…
"Labor in the top 1% is still labor" I have an issue with this. By some definition, of course. But there is still something very different about the kind of labor which goes on there. Class, opportunity, connections, access to capital , and access to political influence further entrenching their position. It's almost like the nobility of yore. I find pointing to the 1% labor as some kind of redeeming quality of the s…
I think that’s kind of what the OP you responded to was getting at. I know professors at large state universities making $100,000+ in medium to low cost of living locations. Some make even more. They aren’t 1% but they might be top 10%.
I guess what’s piqued my interest here is, at what point do we consider labor to be labor?
If you get a nice UAW job for 30 years and plow money into the market, are you not a capitalist?
Is a surgeon not labor since he or she may not own the hospital? Sure they may make $700,000/year, but... aren’t they working for a living?
The Meritocracy Trap is a great book I’d recommend that’s related to this question/issue. Wealth and the bourgeoisie used to just hang out all day and go for walks in the park. Now they work 120 hours/week.
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#406Many comments are focused on "But why should minimum wage jobs pay scale rise with productivity? The jobs haven't gotten any more demanding." But isn't this logic applied to average CEO pay, which has gone up many times faster than productivity? CEOs work isn't any more demanding than it used to be, either.
> CEOs work isn't any more demanding than it used to be, either. I think it has, actually. The CEO's job became more complicated as a result of the increased complexity in the world. There used to be only brick-and-mortar and mail order, now there is internet. They used to advertise on tv, radio, and newspaper. Now they can advertise tv, radio, newspaper, online ads, and social media influencers. They didn't have to…
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#407MIT created a “living wage” calculator that tries to estimate what the minimum livable wage should be in a given city.[0] Some extreme variance from state to state and city to city. There is no reason to do this federally. States and cities should handle minimum wage.
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Labor in the top 1% is still labor" I have an issue with this. By some definition, of course. But there is still something very different about the kind of labor which goes on there. Class, opportunity, connections, access to capital , and access to political influence further entrenching their position. It's almost like the nobility of yore. I find pointing to the 1% labor as some kind of redeeming quality of the s…
Is a family physician labor, or a capitalist? I think that’s kind of what the OP you responded to was getting at. I know professors at large state universities making $100,000+ in medium to low cost of living locations. Some make even more. They aren’t 1% but they might be top 10%. I guess what’s piqued my interest here is, at what point do we consider labor to be labor? If you get a nice UAW job for 30 years and plo…
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/the-fre...
A salient quote:
'Elite men in the U.S. are the world’s chief workaholics. They work longer hours than poorer men in the U.S. and rich men in other advanced countries. In the last generation, they have reduced their leisure time by more than any other demographic. As the economist Robert Frank wrote, “building wealth to them is a creative process, and the closest thing they have to fun.”'
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#409Earlier quoted context omitted.
> we'd see the consumer price index dropping. That's not what's happened. Not for all goods & services. The consumer price index has been falling for most goods & services with the notable exception of healthcare, housing, education, and (to a lesser degree) food. https://howmuch.net/articles/price-changes-in-usa-in-past-20... The only way to prove that “market forces do not reduce prices” is if all goods & services…
> Not for all goods & services... Yes, some sub indices have gone up, others have gone down. That doesn't change the fact that _overall_ the CPI has gone up over time. Wages have been having an inverse relationship with prices overall. This is not a case of "prices are cheaper so the wages are less too". > The only way to prove that “market forces do not reduce prices” I'm not sure why you're putting in quotes someth…
First of all, wages have not universally been in an inverse relationship with price. For example, the median wage has gone up, in real terms, no matter which inflation index you use -> https://twitter.com/Noahpinion/status/1307793622369103872
Second of all, the minimum wage has absolutely increased in most of the US, via state and local minimum wage laws -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24733559. This is reflected in the urban price of food (CPI-U), which is comparatively more sensitive to labor prices, as an input. In other words the argument isn't "prices are cheaper so the wages are less too", it's "wages are higher, so are the prices". While you may be correct that the minimum wage increases are not always sufficient to outpace overall CPI, they more than outpace CPI for food (less labor), which is why the CPI for food has moderately increased once you include labor.
The goods & services for which CPI has dramatically increased have very little to do with low-wage labor (for now), and the root causes are more sector-specific (zoning, guaranteed loans, lack of price transparency, lack of supply etc)
> I'm not sure why you're putting in quotes something I didn't say.
I apologize, I was paraphrasing. That said, that was essentially your assertion: that if markets do actually bring down prices, then the CPI should have fallen. But that presupposes that all goods & services are delivered purely through unfettered markets, which is not the case.
> No it's true for all employers that would have had to pay a living wage and now don't because the middle class will subsidize their labor costs.
No matter what, the employer never pays that living wage. It's either passed on to the consumer in the form of price increases, or it's paid for by society through subsidy.
I've found it helpful to visualize what this looks like with a concrete example:
Imagine a pizza maker's market value is (say) $5/hour. They are able to produce (for simplicity's sake) 5 pizza's per hour, or $1/pizza. Including other operating costs + 3-5% profit margin (that's the average for most restaurants), let's say that the pizza sells for $5. Thus the pizza maker can expect to earn $40/day, on the market. Suppose, due to rising rents and healthcare costs, the "livable minimum wage" should be $15/hour, or $120/day. There are 2 ways to guarantee this:
A) The government deposits an extra $80 to the worker, allowing them to make $120 that day. They can buy a pizza for $5, which is about 4% of their daily wage.
B) The government mandates a minimum wage of $15/hour, which means that the labor portion of the pizza cost goes up from $1 to $3 per pizza (at the same rate of 5 pizzas per hour). The pizza now sells for $7 so that the shop doesn't go out of business. The worker makes $120/day, and can buy a pizza for $7, which is about 6% of their daily wage.
Notice that in (B), the worker is actually worse off, even though they have the same amount of money in their pocket. The worker has to pay a higher percentage of their pay to afford to eat, but this $2 extra means absolutely nothing to a millionaire, it's pennies to a rich person. In scenario (A), the worker is better off, and the welfare system that sustains it can be funded through progressive taxes, which targets rich people.
Re: If pay had kept pace with productivity gains, minimum wage would be $24 an hour
#410Earlier quoted context omitted.
Labor in the top 1% is still labor was my point. I never argued that inequality doesn't exist or didn't get worse. I just think the capital vs labor rhetoric is a distraction. Edit: Also, from the link, this is very fishy to me. You could argue the medical benefits they exclude aren't meaningful because of healthcare inflation not being linked to better health outcomes. You can't make that argument for capital gains.…
"Labor in the top 1% is still labor" I have an issue with this. By some definition, of course. But there is still something very different about the kind of labor which goes on there. Class, opportunity, connections, access to capital , and access to political influence further entrenching their position. It's almost like the nobility of yore. I find pointing to the 1% labor as some kind of redeeming quality of the s…
We need to fix our relationship with work, especially for the sake of those currently unable to do "fun" jobs that pay well. I don't think working less or a redistribution scheme via the government is an honest solution.
Instead, a much higher minimum wage coupled with retraining and temporary economic assistance that can spur a mass automation of "drudgery"-type jobs is a better answer. This in turn would allow society to redesign work so that it is more humane and more valuable. I also don't buy the belief that only some are capable of creative work.
[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/the-fre...