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ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

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Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#341

Post by toastal »

SSLy wrote: post #308
forty wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just side load an other store, then install from there, which I think is acceptable UX since you really just have to install the store once.

Side-loaded stores can't auto-update apps. You have to confirm each app every time. It's unacceptable UX for a typical user.

We’re going down the rabbit hole but a user can install Aurora Services to get background installs in conjunction with Aurora Store. Currently I would assume the same users that are using alt stores probably have root access to install. Similarly one can flash F-Droid’s privileged extension.

https://gitlab.com/AuroraOSS/AuroraService https://gitlab.com/fdroid/privileged-extension

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#342

Post by dane-pgp »

yyyk wrote: post #306
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

Users who don't like Apple policies are often told to 'switch to Android'. But how one does that when the subscription cannot be managed without an Apple device/account and there's no way to 'pass' your subscription directly to the merchant? That's pretty much the definition of lock-in - there's no way to cut Apple out. Apple on the other hand could remove the user out by banning all its subscriptions - which is far…

You're right. The "just switch to Android" excuse is so disingenuous, as the problem here is not just the switching cost for users, but the cost for businesses who might only employ iOS developers.

Saying that a company "just" has to fire most of its staff if Apple ever detrimentally change their App Store rules is more obviously unreasonable than telling a user to buy a new phone.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#343

Post by Supermancho »

dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #270

Guessing this is a hugely unpopular opinion here: A mafia engages in racketeering/extortion. They take a game that’s fair, and make it unfair. Instead of creating value, they steal it. Without the mafia, people would retain more value for themselves. Apple, on the other hand, created and maintains an enormous platform. Without Apple, the App Store would not exist. The rules are posted to a webpage and are applied mor…

> Concretely about this post: it seems really naive!

Proton Mail is not just an app. It's going to be up to the courts to re-affirm that a private party cannot force another party to give them profits of an unrelated product.

These kinds of "deals" are partially what got the Teamsters in trouble and are characteristic of the criminal mobs (which included the mafia). "I heard you have a second job selling stocks, be a real same if something happened to your app" - classic protection racket.

Calling others naive does not make your stance compelling.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#344

Post by crossroadsguy »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #116
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

This is the opposite argument to what the problem is right now. It's not that IAP is bad, or that it shouldn't be available. It's that there's no alternative permitted in addition to Apple's IAP model. You're not even allowed to HINT at the fact that you might have alternative ways to pay for the things you want to pay for. Even if your name is hugeservicethateveryoneknows, you can't tell people that you have a websi…

I'd rathe like Apple to do what they are doing with "Sign In With Apple". If you have any other sing up option in your app you have to have Sing in With Apple as well. I don't mind that.

If you want to be a payment gateway, compete with other payment gateways. If the app has any other payment method integration, there should be IAP as well.

But the problem is: if IAP is available, at least I am never going to opt for custom payment methods ever unless there's a clear cost benefit. Just like the OP I've had nightmares dealing with cancellation and automatic reactivations (of course that means automatic billing as well).

But the question is will Apple allow apps to show, or does it even make sense to do this:

Pay With Apple: $13

Pay with CC: $10.03

Pay with X: $11

This doesn't look like a solution at all now.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#345

Post by crossroadsguy »

simion314 wrote: post #170
pwinnski wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ProtonMail had no IAP in their app at all, but offered paid subscriptions on their website. Apple insisted that they offer IAP in the app, and ProtonMail is upset. Here: > "Out of the blue, one day they said you have to add in-app purchase to stay in the App Store. They stumbled upon something in the app that mentioned there were paid plans, they went to the website and saw there was a subscription you could purchase…

The problem is bigger then that. Apple takes a 30% cut(and the fanboys will say it is legal and fair and theoretically Apple could make it 99% and should still be legal) and on top of that cut they are forcing you not to inform the customer about alternatives, YES Apple prevents you to be informed by better reals and deciding for yourself what is better, so you could say that Apple is protecting you because you are t…

In addition to the annual $100 (if it hasn't changed) developer fee, should they start charging a per install/download fee. What do you say to that?

I also don't like Apple's insistence of "only IAP or nothing at all (not even a mention)" but how do you suggest they make profit from the developer side? Or they should not do that at all?

It should be 10%? 20? 5%? What will be an acceptable %? Who decides that? What's the framework for deciding that?

I see one solution, and it's far fetched, developers/companies should fund and push for an alternative open platform, along with phone/device makers. Something that's not tightly controlled like iOS and Android. But then they will be losing on iOS. I think they will have a choice to make, consumers as well. Also, it's not an easy and short term solution.

We gleefully buy Macs, but imagine you buy a Lenovo/etc laptop and you are told you can't install Linux on this, only Windows. I won't be comfortable with that, but I am comfortable with the Mac buy where I Windows can be installed only via Mac (and Linux isn't even supported) - of course there could be work around with lots of circus and you cna live with a broken system.

Problem is not the cost. Problem is mono/duopoly of walled gardens.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#346

Post by grogenaut »

SSLy wrote: post #308
forty wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just side load an other store, then install from there, which I think is acceptable UX since you really just have to install the store once.

Side-loaded stores can't auto-update apps. You have to confirm each app every time. It's unacceptable UX for a typical user.

both owning a phone and having worked on large scale apps, users couldn't get an eff about updating apps and are in fact annoyed by it.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#347

Post by fatbird »

a1369209993 wrote: post #332
fatbird wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time we say "in theory a competitive market could achieve the same goals," we find that the entrepeneurs don't have the same goals. The problem isn't the mechanism of capitalism, it's the naive belief that consumer goals and seller goals are aligned.

Actually the problem is more that the theoretical concept of a competitive market bears about as much resemblance to any real consumer goods market as a homogenous sphere of bone, meat and skin in a frictionless vacuum bears to a cow.

Agreed.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#348

Post by ksec »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #345
simion314 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is bigger then that. Apple takes a 30% cut(and the fanboys will say it is legal and fair and theoretically Apple could make it 99% and should still be legal) and on top of that cut they are forcing you not to inform the customer about alternatives, YES Apple prevents you to be informed by better reals and deciding for yourself what is better, so you could say that Apple is protecting you because you are t…

In addition to the annual $100 (if it hasn't changed) developer fee, should they start charging a per install/download fee. What do you say to that? I also don't like Apple's insistence of "only IAP or nothing at all (not even a mention)" but how do you suggest they make profit from the developer side? Or they should not do that at all? It should be 10%? 20? 5%? What will be an acceptable %? Who decides that? What's…

I can bet $100 even if someone could raise a $100 billion they will still have no chance of breaking the current Mono/Duopoly of iOS and Android.

As much as I wish there is third option ( I cant believe Microsoft is something I considered, giving what I went though in the 90s ) the Smartphone moat make it pretty much indestructible.

I still remember thinking, we could make something better than Microsoft with tens of billions dollars, decent management and strategy in the 90s. Despite my disagreement with Apple's App Store, I am not sure I can make something better than Apple. It is so well run, with so many loyal customers, that when they were doing good ( Under Steve Jobs ) I was very happy. Now under Tim Cook, it is damn right scary.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#349

Post by sudosysgen »

drummer wrote: post #141
ProAm wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Much like the government and IRS. ...and the mafia.

Many people still don't realize government and IRS are the mafia, believe it or not.

While it's true that historically law enforcement and tax collection was essentially the mafia, the difference here is that the IRS is controlled by a democratic organization.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#350

Post by whakim »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #345
simion314 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is bigger then that. Apple takes a 30% cut(and the fanboys will say it is legal and fair and theoretically Apple could make it 99% and should still be legal) and on top of that cut they are forcing you not to inform the customer about alternatives, YES Apple prevents you to be informed by better reals and deciding for yourself what is better, so you could say that Apple is protecting you because you are t…

In addition to the annual $100 (if it hasn't changed) developer fee, should they start charging a per install/download fee. What do you say to that? I also don't like Apple's insistence of "only IAP or nothing at all (not even a mention)" but how do you suggest they make profit from the developer side? Or they should not do that at all? It should be 10%? 20? 5%? What will be an acceptable %? Who decides that? What's…

The app store ecosystem clearly has value, and I think Apple are entitled to make a profit off of it. (See, for example, comments below about how difficult it is to cancel subscriptions to other kinds of services.) The problem is that the 30% Apple charges has no relationship whatsoever to the amount of value that the app store provides - it's simply how much Apple can get away with charging. If alternate app stores were allowed, or alternate payment mechanisms were allowed, Apple would only be able to afford to charge a premium commensurate with how much "better" their experience is.
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