ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion' • Hacker News Board

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#191

Post by newbie578 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

setpatchaddress wrote: post #131

newbie578 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet there were people who loved using Bell System and people who enjoyed using IE over Netscape, yet we are not judging them based on how loved they are, but are they playing fair, and Apple since it's rise has been anything but.

Phone service in the US prior to 1983 certainly wasn't adored by users in the way that Apple products are. It wasn't universally reviled, but consumers didn't love it. This SNL skit was not unpopular: https://vimeo.com/355556831 If you want your arguments to be effective, it may be best to stick to analogies that you have personal experience with unless you've read deeply enough to understand the cultural context.

I didn't say all people loved Bell Systems, I said there were people (some people doesn't mean 100%) who loved Bell Systems, just like there are people today who hate using Verizon and love using it.

And Apple is not universally loved also, no matter how much you adore them, there are people who don't.

This youtube parody was also not unpopular:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyTA33HQZLA

And there are plenty of videos similar like this. We can both cherry-pick like this, and my point still stands, I am not arguing which monopoly is loved more, I am arguing what is FAIR before the court of law, not how much developers enjoy WWDC and their Macs.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#192

Post by jqpabc123 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #167

Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners. We (in this case the EU) should give it the same treatment we gave credit card companies. Cap their rates at 1% or whatever so they can cover the operational costs of their stores, stop them from b…

If you're an end user --- don't buy Apple.

If you're a developer --- don't build for Apple.

Problem solved.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#193

Post by nvrspyx » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

d1zzy wrote: post #176

croh wrote: post #33

Google/Apple should drop the percentage. 30% is too high. Store is a kind of ecosystem which based on the mutual benefits of both Apple and Devs. Devs helped to accelerate their products. Having billions in reserve, they should not hurt this relationship.

> 30% is too high What determines what is too high here? If it's about the cost of it (it costs Google/Apple much less money to build and maintain an ecosystem so they can "afford" to do it) wouldn't that imply that there is a huge market opportunity for someone else to build their own ecosystem and charge less? But maybe because that doesn't happen is proof that it may not be "too high".

> imply there is a huge market opportunity for someone else to build their own ecosystem and charge less?

Hmmm. Let's see what one would need to do at a bare minimum:

- start manufacturing phones

- build own OS (or fork Android)

- develop own SDK

- develop own online store infrastructure

- manufacture other devices (e.g. Apple) and/or develop other services (e.g. Google) to complete "ecosystem"

The barrier to entry in developing a mobile (and beyond) ecosystem is astronomical when competing with either Apple or Google. It's practically impossible to break into a multi-trillion dollar market when it's siloed to two multi-trillion dollar corporations.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#194

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:42 PM UTC

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #177

whimsicalism wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am proud that I pretty much cured everyone in my circle from buying any Apple products. And buying what instead?

Potentially unpopular opinion here on HN, but Android.

And that avoids the rent-seeking problem... how?

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#195

Post by systemvoltage » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

I think HN discussions have always been focusing on developer/business side of things but people don't realize that users - they don't care what happens in the backend. They care about the experience and Apple delivers, and then some.

I think Apple's 30% can be debated but a vanishingly small slice of users know this and care about it, millions of users just want to do their thing with beautiful ease and experience.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#196

Post by newbie578 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

d1zzy wrote: post #186

newbie578 wrote: post #9

Another thread where people will fly to defend Apple and explain how it's circumstances are similar to PS and Xbox and no one is coming after Sony, yet everyone conveniently decides not to compare Apple to early 2000s Microsoft which is basically a mirror situation. I guess people "expect" stuff like this from Apple which is the reason we are not allowed to criticize them, yet if Microsoft came out and said Steam bre…

I don't need XBOX or PS5 to defend Apple. I will defend the rights of any non-monopoly (Apple doesn't have a monopoly on the phone market) that created their own hardware, software platform and digital market from scratch, to define their own rules governing said digital market whatsoever. However, do not confuse defending Apple's right to impose their rules with "liking" or "approving" what they do. Just because I b…

I respect your opinion and you have the right to defend any non-monopoly or even a monopoly, that is your basic human right, just know that Apple is not a non-monopoly, we are not looking and talking about worldwide market share, since Apple is based in the U.S. and answers to the U.S. courts, so you have to look at the U.S. market share, which quite in fact to no one's surprise is monopolistic (over 50%)

. See Hayden Publ'g Co., Inc. v. Cox Broad. Corp., 730 F.2d 64, 69 n.7 (2d Cir. 1984) ("[A] party may have monopoly power in a particular market, even though its market share is less than 50%."); Broadway Delivery Corp. v. UPS, 651 F.2d 122, 129 (2d Cir. 1981) ("[W]hen the evidence presents a fair jury issue of monopoly power, the jury should not be told that it must find monopoly power lacking below a specified share."); Yoder Bros., Inc. v. Cal.-Fla. Plant Corp., 537 F.2d, 1347, 1367 n.19 (5th Cir. 1976) (rejecting "a rigid rule requiring 50% of the market for a monopolization offense without regard to any other factors").

And even IF Apple has not the dominant market share (which it does), it can still be engaged in anti-competitive practices, which it is currently being trialed for.

And last but not least, we (be it me as a consumer, Epic as a company, or Spotify) are not asking Apple to play by our own rules, but by the rules of LAW.

I feel like a lot of people are missing this point, this is the reason Epic is taking Apple to court, not because it won't play to Epic's rules but because of free market rules on which this country has been built.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#197

Post by systemvoltage » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

stefano wrote: post #188

lisper wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% is not an amount I would consider a "small" premium.

The premium is actually higher than that. For $100, the developer gets $70. Which means the premium is $30 on a $70 base price, i.e. a ~42% higher price. That's a very steep price for easier payment cancellation.

It is the percentage of the market price that the customer paid, not what developer got. You're twisting this.

Think about it this way - if Apple was not in the middle, the developer would have received $100. So it is 30% less than what they would have received without Apple cut.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#198

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #112

Spooky23 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a lot of drama associated with this stuff. 100% of nothing is less than 70% of something. When I was in college I interned at a company that negotiated retail placements for stuff like software. The 30% slice is a much better model than the terms our customers were stuck with. In some cases, software people lose more in the channel for commercial software as well — companies like SHI skim the cream for doing…

That's great. Apple's great app store should compete in a free market for all stores, and you can enjoy shopping there.

Great point, that has had a huge impact on the quality and pricing of applications on the Android platform.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#199

Post by whaaaaaaaaa » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #98

whaaaaaaaaa wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is someone making ProtonMail use AppStore?

YES. That is precisely what the 50 threads on HN on this topic in the last two months have been about. There is no realistic / reasonable way to distribute an iPhone app outside the app store.

Why buy an iPhone then?

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#200

Post by toyg » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #169

Hermel wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your reading of the situation lacks one crucial piece of information: Apple does not allow app authors to forward the “Apple tax” to the user. For example, if a newspaper subscription costs 300$ on the website, the publisher must not charge more than that in the app store event though he only gets 210$ after the “Apple tax”.

That has not been true since 2011, nine years ago! https://venturebeat.com/2011/06/09/apple-backtracks-on-in-ap...

As your sibling comment demonstrates, Apple will try and try again to reinstate that policy. One way or the other, they’ll squeeze developers until the last ounce of profit goes to Apple. They are the supermarket chain of software now, and that’s what supermarket chains do.