Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#61

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

cynusx wrote: post #41

syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

I agree that unions have been an important player for worker rights and in some countries even the advent and enforcement of democracy. However, unions really make sense when workers are a "commodity" and easily replaceable to the point that they are ground down into poverty. Steel workers and drivers would be a good example of such jobs. In software engineering, you have plenty of options to change jobs and go to a…

Apparently many US companies do, because they outsource to European companies and we do unionize across full sectors, not single companies.

Everyone from the cleaning personal to upper management gets part of the deal.

Plus apparently some haven't yet grasped that in many economies across the world, Software Engineers are indeed replacement cogs, they just cost little more per month than other cogs.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#62

Post by eitau_1 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 11:03 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #31

Good luck, most European countries have unions, and for us the laws negotiated with them usually affect everyone on the building, not just the union people like on US. Even if Poland unions aren't fully there (no idea), I bet they are more effective and in use than on US. Google will be surprised.

In Poland unions are strong only in state owned companies and public sector.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#63

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 11:05 AM UTC

eitau_1 wrote: post #62

pjmlp wrote: post #31

Good luck, most European countries have unions, and for us the laws negotiated with them usually affect everyone on the building, not just the union people like on US. Even if Poland unions aren't fully there (no idea), I bet they are more effective and in use than on US. Google will be surprised.

In Poland unions are strong only in state owned companies and public sector.

I see, thanks.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#64

Post by cynusx » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:15 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #61

cynusx wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that unions have been an important player for worker rights and in some countries even the advent and enforcement of democracy. However, unions really make sense when workers are a "commodity" and easily replaceable to the point that they are ground down into poverty. Steel workers and drivers would be a good example of such jobs. In software engineering, you have plenty of options to change jobs and go to a…

Apparently many US companies do, because they outsource to European companies and we do unionize across full sectors, not single companies. Everyone from the cleaning personal to upper management gets part of the deal. Plus apparently some haven't yet grasped that in many economies across the world, Software Engineers are indeed replacement cogs, they just cost little more per month than other cogs.

In my opinion there is a big difference between being forced by regulation to unionize and to be forced by your own employees to unionize.

The management can't be blamed for the regulation and the employees clearly didn't decide to unionize because they don't believe in their own chances of finding employment elsewhere.

If the forcing function is external then there's no reason to assume the company's performance will be subpar from a buyer POV

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#65

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

cynusx wrote: post #64

pjmlp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently many US companies do, because they outsource to European companies and we do unionize across full sectors, not single companies. Everyone from the cleaning personal to upper management gets part of the deal. Plus apparently some haven't yet grasped that in many economies across the world, Software Engineers are indeed replacement cogs, they just cost little more per month than other cogs.

In my opinion there is a big difference between being forced by regulation to unionize and to be forced by your own employees to unionize. The management can't be blamed for the regulation and the employees clearly didn't decide to unionize because they don't believe in their own chances of finding employment elsewhere. If the forcing function is external then there's no reason to assume the company's performance wil…

I really don't get this US point of view how unions have anything to do with job performance or ability to find jobs.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#66

Post by s3r3nity » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

idrios wrote: post #44

s3r3nity wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked doctors, who aren't unionized in the US and are more essential than nurses, are doing just fine.

Yeah but doctors are a unique entity. There's little need for doctors to do collective bargaining because there's barely anybody who could take their job, so they already have a lot of bargaining power. If doctors didn't require a medical license, alleviating the need for 4 years of medical school + residency, suddenly there would be a glut of competition and doctors would surely need to unionize. Conversely, if soft…

>...because there's barely anybody who could take their job

That's the point: relative pay matters, and an important + scarce job _deserves_ higher pay than others.

>If doctors didn't require a medical license, alleviating the need for 4 years of medical school + residency...

These aren't arbitrary boundaries - this is difficult work with significant downside risk if you fuck up. Not anyone can be a doctor, and we need doctors, so those who succeed deserve higher pay. Virtually anyone can be a Fry Cook or a Walmart Greeter.

Uncomfortable fact: society needs doctors and engineers (software or otherwise) many times more than we need fast food workers.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#67

Post by s3r3nity » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

brnt wrote: post #58

s3r3nity wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I checked doctors, who aren't unionized in the US and are more essential than nurses, are doing just fine.

Doctors are not any more essential than nurses like the piston isn't any more essential than the crankshaft. You need the whole team, working in concert, and there is no other way about it.

With all due respect, your take is naive: just because you need a team doesn't mean some members aren't more essential than others.

You can, in theory, have an Oncologist handle your cancer without a nurse; you can't have it the other way around. That makes the former more essential.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#68

Post by brnt » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

s3r3nity wrote: post #67

brnt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors are not any more essential than nurses like the piston isn't any more essential than the crankshaft. You need the whole team, working in concert, and there is no other way about it.

With all due respect, your take is naive: just because you need a team doesn't mean some members aren't more essential than others. You can, in theory, have an Oncologist handle your cancer without a nurse; you can't have it the other way around. That makes the former more essential.

Unless you can afford your own doctor, I'm afraid you ate being naive. The reality of care for the lot of us that we depend on the system as a whole working, not individual professionals. If the nurses strike, hospitals shutter. By the way, as an oncology researcher, doctors are vastly overrated anyway. Their main contribution is signing documents. It is my officious goal to make them obsolete.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#69

Post by clusterfish » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

harmoat wrote: post #60

clusterfish wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developed countries have reasonable healthcare, parental leave and vacation minimums provided by the magic of a functional government. If your country doesn't maybe focus on fixing that for everyone. Don't need unions for that.

Reasonable healthcare, parental leave and vacation minimums were not acquired in the countries that have them by "the magic of a functional government" but by people organising in big enough groups to matter and bargaining with the government and employers.

~20% of workers in Europe are unionized. ~30% for Canada, ~10% for US. Canada's labour laws are very similar to US, only slightly better. It's not better than or even close to being as good as Europe.

This difference is coming from different culture and priorities. Lack of unions isn't why you don't have universal healthcare in the US and other such things. It's because the country's general culture and ideology works against both unions and social welfare.

You don't need unions to organize and demand things of the government. If people don't want to vote for social policies, unions won't make them want different things.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#70

Post by advisedwang » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #38

Why is this discussion all wrapped up in Google and software engineers unionizing? These people aren’t Google employees nor are they software engineers. They work for HCL, which seems like a discount tech contracting firm. Read the article, lol.

Typically when a company like Google contracts with a vendor like HCL, the statement of work will include work location (for many reasons such as the impact of time differences on productivity). If a vendor moves work to a different location, Google at the least would have assented by accepting a change to their SOW.