Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#161

Post by Slightofhand » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

sumedh wrote: post #132

mrwnmonm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense, Egypt had a democratic elected president (which I didn't support), who won in a fair elections. And it is very funny that you mentioned two countries which the US were responsible for their destruction.

Not sure what do you mean by Nonsense, are you saying current state of Iraq and Libya is ok. This is what Australian Traveller Govt site says about Egypt Kidnapping is a risk for travellers in Egypt. Violent crime can happen. Take extra care if you're a women and alone. Terrorists have attacked places popular with tourists in recent years. https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/africa/egypt

You implied that the west keeping the devil dictator is better than having a revolution and for people to chose their own destiny. Even if it looks like a warzone now, assuming those people are left alone to decide their future, they will go back to peace and prosperity instead of having someone millions miles away decide what they eat, think and see.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#162

Post by dariusj18 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #139

dariusj18 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender studies is a very new thing, so I doubt you'd be hard pressed to find many who claimed it's been figured out. Though, I think what most gender researchers will agree on is there are more than two genders, and more variation in sex than a simplistic view of biology would make one think.

> you'd be hard pressed to find many who claimed it's been figured out. Here's a small list to begin with: https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk...

I am confused as to what you are suggesting with that link and its contents.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#163

Post by watwut » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #126

simonklitj wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the common lingo is that gender is what you identify as, and sex is what you biologically are (subject to change through sex-change operations).

Exect that "Gender" in relationship to any animal or conversation is used interchangeably with sex. While Gender-identity is the new age belief that your "Gender-identity" or gender for short, is a preference you can change (With or without sex change operations depending on your political view). The obfuscation of the word itself is a problem in discussions. I find it distastefull how people can 'identify as' male/f…

I can buy toy car or lego technic for my daughter, both of which is me mismatching sex and gender. Sex is that she does not have penis. Gender is that lego technic and toy car are boy toys.

In contrast, my dog is getting dog toys as opposed to pink she-dog balls and black he-dog toys.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#164

Post by josephcsible » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

solarengineer wrote: post #107

nradov wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

Why do people obsess over the fatality rate to dismiss the pandemic, but ignore the long term impairment of many of those who survive? Second, why not learn from the Far East and adopt a mask wearing, social distancing culture and prepare and lockdown?

Because there's going to be long-term harmful effects of the lockdowns too, that will be worse the longer they go on for. The real question is, why do people ignore that while making such a big deal of the long-term effects of the virus on survivors?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#165

Post by Retric » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

feralimal wrote: post #58

Retric wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has anyone here ever used an electron microscope? I am not a scientist, but yes. It’s not that hard to directly access most scientific tools. Verification takes effort, but random verification should reasonably give you confidence and can be a fun project on it’s own. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVbdbVhzcM4 PS: One of the most famous experiments off all time is replicated whenever you can something. https://en.…

You've used an electron microscope? They've been around since 1933 you know - we should all have ready access by now, no? If you look at a video, do you believe its true? Take a look at this one, to see the problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFLs6nufCj4 You really cannot trust what is presented on a screen. There really is no equivalent to personally testing science or any thesis personally. You will be illumi…

That video is making the false claim that individual aspects of a video can’t be independently falsified. A simple example is to track down the original referenced paper. Another is knowing that at the time the video was created, VFX wasn’t good enough to fake the shot. That’s not verification of say the amount of effort involved, as they could be scamming their backers or whatnot. But, it does demonstrate the difference between being skeptical and a conspiracy theorist.

A skeptic looks for individual evidence to support every independent assertion, where a conspiracy theory is based on the assumption that individual truths are linked. Using multiple different takes to make a video is independent of the accuracy of the experiment. A trained crow would be able to fake what a crow learning to solve a puzzle does.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#166

Post by HenriTEL » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #157

Diving straight to the core: "With the rise of the Ash’arites, the ethos in the Islamic world was increasingly opposed to original scholarship and any scientific inquiry that did not directly aid in religious regulation of private and public life. While the Mu’tazilites had contended that the Koran was created and so God’s purpose for man must be interpreted through reason, the Ash’arites believed the Koran to be coe…

And also

"Mohammed was not only a prophet but also a chief magistrate, a political leader who conquered and governed a religious community he founded. Because Islam was born outside of the Roman Empire, it was never subordinate to politics."

"Islam needs a state to enforce its laws, and the state needs a basis in Islam to be legitimate."

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#167

Post by ffhhj » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

Philosophy is mind hunger, an ambition of knowing that takes individuals to risky results like being depressed, isolated and poor. People content with religion, entertainment (social media, consumerism, etc.), or being pressured by their families/relatives to follow non-phylosophical behaviours of hard-workers and breadwinners won't feel the hunger, or will find a replacement for it.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#168

Post by captain_price7 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

pknerd wrote: post #146

> Sunnis embraced al-Ghazali as the winner of the debate with the Hellenistic rationalists Let's assume it is true and Sunnis followed Ghazali and stopped thinking, pondering and doing research work but what about Shias and other factions of it? Why did not they produce something amazing in science? One can't blame Ghazali for all the mess, especially when he was not followed by all Islamic sects. I will not blame Is…

Not disputing you, just wanted to note that Shia Iran is doing far, far better than it's Sunni neighbors, which is even more impressive when you consider the kind of government they have and all those sanctions.

And while we Muslims undoubtedly carry the biggest blame for our demise- lets' not forget the west has real interest in keeping the status quo- a free thinking, rational government is fundamentally at odds with the fundamentalist dictators west has been supporting (e.g. in Saudi arabia) for past few centuries.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#169

Post by dariusj18 » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:16 PM UTC

implements wrote: post #134

dariusj18 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender studies is a very new thing, so I doubt you'd be hard pressed to find many who claimed it's been figured out. Though, I think what most gender researchers will agree on is there are more than two genders, and more variation in sex than a simplistic view of biology would make one think.

I struggle with the concept of gender because it appears to be akin to a ‘racialised theory of sex‘. I’m male. My appearance, sense of dress, interests and attractions are my unique personality - I don’t think they come from a biologically inherent gender, nor do I think it’s socially progressive to promote the idea that they do or should. Edit: Are you sure you didn’t downvote for ‘heretical opinion’ rather than act…

I think many gender studies point to how inherently difficult it is to separate biology, physiology and culture. And much of the issues come when those three things don't seem to line up. So much of the vitriol from all sides of the cultural debate seem to extend from, not necessarily the science of it, but how that should affect our policies and interactions with each other.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#170

Post by hannofcart » Fri, Oct 09, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #143

tgflynn wrote: post #131

This article makes for an interesting read. I'm not qualified to evaluate its historical claims but its claims about the current state of science in the Muslim world don't agree with what little knowledge I have in that area. That knowledge comes from having been acquainted with a number of Muslim students and scientists both in the US and in France. I did not at all get the impression that they came from a culture t…

> your best bet is to emigrate to the west if that is at all possible And THAT is the problem in any non-western country. The extent of brain drain by more flourishing economies are the prime reasons why certain countries are plagued by lack of education, lack of opportunity, spread of corruption, and spread of gang-like entities.

While your point is well taken, note that the brain drain would not be as rampant if the countries themselves as a matter of policy emphasised investing in research.

Note also that a significant portion of the current problems bogging these nations down stems from conflict along religious and sectarian lines (Shia-Sunni enemity).