Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

thenewatlantis.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 413 posts

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#131

Post by tgflynn »

This article makes for an interesting read. I'm not qualified to evaluate its historical claims but its claims about the current state of science in the Muslim world don't agree with what little knowledge I have in that area. That knowledge comes from having been acquainted with a number of Muslim students and scientists both in the US and in France. I did not at all get the impression that they came from a culture that does not value open rational inquiry, despite several, at least, being devout Muslims. I'm sure Fundamentalists are deeply opposed to anything resembling science but as far as I know they are a minority in most of the Muslim world. I should qualify these statements by noting that most of the Muslims I knew came from the Maghreb rather than say the Persian Gulf area so maybe things are very different there.

There are also some other possible explanations for the relative lack of success of scientific research in Muslim countries today that the article does not consider. First many of these countries are relatively poor and under-developed so if you are born there and have the opportunity to study science you are likely to be encouraged to go into more practical fields, like engineering, rather than pure research, which is very under-funded in these countries, again mostly due to overall lack of resources. Secondly if you really want to go into research your best bet is to emigrate to the west if that is at all possible. Again some of this doesn't apply to the oil rich states of the Persian Gulf, but I think the brain drain effect is at work even there.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#132

Post by sumedh »

mrwnmonm wrote: post #96
sumedh wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> had no problem working with dictators who are the main reason for the decline of scientific study in the region. If you get rid of the dictator you end up like Iraq and Libya after Saddam and Gaddafi were removed. Its better to deal with the devil you know.

Nonsense, Egypt had a democratic elected president (which I didn't support), who won in a fair elections. And it is very funny that you mentioned two countries which the US were responsible for their destruction.

Not sure what do you mean by Nonsense, are you saying current state of Iraq and Libya is ok. This is what Australian Traveller Govt site says about Egypt

Kidnapping is a risk for travellers in Egypt. Violent crime can happen. Take extra care if you're a women and alone. Terrorists have attacked places popular with tourists in recent years.

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/africa/egypt

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#133

Post by GuB-42 »

feralimal wrote: post #34

Ha ha - primitive Islamic religionists!! Only we are exactly the same, but are blind to our failings. This narrative plays on our conceited, flabby, unreasoned thinking. But its nice to laugh to others, eh? Science to me, is the application of the scientific method. This is to say that whatever is being looked at should be repeatable, and consistently provide the same results. Strictly speaking, when we say we know,…

Many people consider science like a religion. For example, many people don't understand evolution, they think some magic force gradually turned fishes into humans. No wonder it is sometimes put on the same level as creationism. But to be honest, it doesn't really matter. If you are not a scientist, faith is a shortcut that allows you to focus more on what matters more to you.

The difference is that you don't need faith. With enough motivation, you can probably get to see the virus on an election microscope. It is difficult. Just operating an election microscope is an art, and getting the necessary security clearances to work with deadly pathogens can be tricky. Almost no one does it, but sometimes, a crazy enough guy spends way too much time challenging a well established theory. Most of the times, the results are the same as what mainstream science says, but there are a few exceptions. This random poking keeps science in check.

The current pandemic is good at exposing the "non-faith" aspects of science. Covid is not airborne, ah, maybe it is, hydroxychloroquine works, no it doesn't, case fatality rate is 5%, no, 0.5%, no, 1%, it attacks the lungs, the nose, you keep immunity for a long time, no you don't, yes you do, etc... It is constantly changing, and this is science at work. A priest will not change his mind, he will not receive a new revision of the Bible every week. That rarely shown aspect is a bit unsettling to those with a faith-based view of science, but totally normal for those who are practicing.

Modern academia has its problems. We often talk about the "reproducibility crisis", but the simple fact it is widely recognized as a problem sets it apart from religion.

And BTW, while I am an atheist myself, I am not against religion. Religion offers stability and answers that science is unable to provide, and both can coexist.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#134

Post by implements »

dariusj18 wrote: post #104
Yetanfou wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the sudden appearance of a multitude of 'genders', the statement than there is no such thing as biological sex, the denial of the existence of facts which are now to be seen as interpretations and many more of these results of the introduction of 'critical theory' [1,2] in academia. [1] https://newdiscourses.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory#In_academia

Gender studies is a very new thing, so I doubt you'd be hard pressed to find many who claimed it's been figured out. Though, I think what most gender researchers will agree on is there are more than two genders, and more variation in sex than a simplistic view of biology would make one think.

I struggle with the concept of gender because it appears to be akin to a ‘racialised theory of sex‘.

I’m male. My appearance, sense of dress, interests and attractions are my unique personality - I don’t think they come from a biologically inherent gender, nor do I think it’s socially progressive to promote the idea that they do or should.

Edit: Are you sure you didn’t downvote for ‘heretical opinion’ rather than actual content? Please explain, if not.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#135

Post by nradov »

reincarnate0x14 wrote: post #122
nradov wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it disappointing to see so many Americans panicking over the disease when medical science tells us the infection fatality rate is likely under 0.35%. https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-... Our current pandemic response is mostly a faith-based policy based on irrational fears rather than a science-based policy based on objective reality.

The panic was never over the case or infection fatality rates. The panic is because of asymptomatic spreaders. If a strain of influenza suddenly spiked to higher fatality rates, less drastic measures could contain it because it's usually obvious when you are contagious with influenza. Also, as someone who had SARS-COV-2 and didn't die, it was fucking awful and I fully blame the complete failure of US leadership for t…

That is not scientifically accurate. A significant fraction of influenza cases are also asymptomatic, and they are capable of spreading the disease to others.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586318/

You could have already killed someone without even knowing it by transmitting the flu to them. There's no way to know for sure.

US federal and state handling of the pandemic has been mostly terrible. But even if we had competent, honest leaders I doubt the long-term death toll would be much different. Community transmission was already widespread by the time anyone realized there was a serious problem, and by that point it was too late to contain the pandemic.

https://www.wsj.com/graphics/when-did-covid-hit-earliest-dea...

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#136

Post by DSingularity »

rob74 wrote: post #101
diegoholiveira wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess that Islam have no issues with good science, right? In my opinion, blaming religion for any decline of science is completely accepted even if there's no direct correlation between both, which is very bad because it's creates a false believe that religious people aren't educated.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being religious, I think the major problem is fundamentalism: if you consider your Holy Book (be it the Koran, the Bible or whatever else), or even more commonly a narrow interpretation of it, as the single source of truth and condemn all who deviate from it, that's a recipe for stagnation. That happened in Europe in the Middle Ages, and it's happening in the Arabic world now.

You are right and you are wrong. What’s happening in the Arabic world is far from this. What’s happening in the Arab world is a continuation of existing European and US foreign policy which seeks to maintain the low cost of energy by ensuring that the Middle East remains subjugated. It has to be the entire Middle East to ensure that those Saudis never look up and demand to be free. Instead they keep pumping that oil and selling it on the global market.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#137

Post by mrwnmonm »

sumedh wrote: post #132
mrwnmonm wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense, Egypt had a democratic elected president (which I didn't support), who won in a fair elections. And it is very funny that you mentioned two countries which the US were responsible for their destruction.

Not sure what do you mean by Nonsense, are you saying current state of Iraq and Libya is ok. This is what Australian Traveller Govt site says about Egypt Kidnapping is a risk for travellers in Egypt. Violent crime can happen. Take extra care if you're a women and alone. Terrorists have attacked places popular with tourists in recent years. https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/africa/egypt

So I was saying that the US is responsible for their destruction, and you thought that I think it is ok?

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#138

Post by DSingularity »

sumedh wrote: post #88
mrwnmonm wrote: post #62

I am an Arab and I am pretty sure the article is full of misinformation before even reading it, but will read it anyway. Take the first paragraph > Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project. But it is heir to a legendary “Golden Age” of Arabic science frequently invoked by commentators hoping to make Muslims and Westerners more respectful and understanding of each other. Pres…

> had no problem working with dictators who are the main reason for the decline of scientific study in the region. If you get rid of the dictator you end up like Iraq and Libya after Saddam and Gaddafi were removed. Its better to deal with the devil you know.

Funny you mention Saddam. He was supported by the CIA to overthrow a government which leaned communist.

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#139

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

dariusj18 wrote: post #104
Yetanfou wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the sudden appearance of a multitude of 'genders', the statement than there is no such thing as biological sex, the denial of the existence of facts which are now to be seen as interpretations and many more of these results of the introduction of 'critical theory' [1,2] in academia. [1] https://newdiscourses.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory#In_academia

Gender studies is a very new thing, so I doubt you'd be hard pressed to find many who claimed it's been figured out. Though, I think what most gender researchers will agree on is there are more than two genders, and more variation in sex than a simplistic view of biology would make one think.

> you'd be hard pressed to find many who claimed it's been figured out.

Here's a small list to begin with: https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk...

Re: Why the Arabic world turned away from science (2011)

#140

Post by kalenx »

feralimal wrote: post #93
w0utert wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with your final conclusion, but I upvoted this regardless, because I think it is an interesting perspective that is worthwhile to philosophize on. If the Covid-19 situation taught me anything, it would be that it's apparently very, very easy to convince the vast majority of the population they need behave, think and feel in some way, based on 'facts' and figures that are unproven, incomplete, out-of-con…

Thank you. I always get heavily downvoted as I don't think others are as open minded to hearing a different viewpoint as you. I agree too. But, I see science as an individual's pursuit. I really mean it when I say that science is something one should verify personally. Whenever you don't do that, you are accepting a story - without testing you cannot know anything, it is all in the realm of belief. And you are right…

Be careful in bringing up "open mindedness". If the most compelling thing you can say about your position is that "it is so weird and obtuse that only true open minds will not reject it", I'm not sure you're making a point here...

> But, I see science as an individual's pursuit. I really mean it when I say that science is something one should verify personally.

Sure. But you can't. You literally can't. And since you can't, it means, given this sentence, that you consider all science to be in the realm of belief. This is really sad.

> Whenever you don't do that, you are accepting a story - without testing you cannot know anything, it is all in the realm of belief.

Post reply on HN