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Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

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Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#691
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not going to argue whether I think APIs should be copyrightable, but I believe creating a good API is a work of creative design, and is artistic I disagree. I think the specification can be, but the API code itself is a mechanical translation of the specification into computer code. Note that abstractions, names, etc are conceived in the specification and are then translated into computer code. Even if you skip…

> I think the specification can be, but the API code itself is a mechanical translation of the specification into computer code. Note that abstractions, names, etc are conceived in the specification and are then translated into computer code. Even if you skip the specification step, as sometimes is done, you're then dealing with an implicit, ad-hoc specification. I think that's a distinction without a difference; you…

The words on paper (or any other medium) are protected under copyright. The story isn't. Otherwise someone could just make a theoretical book that contains all possible English sentences and thereby make it illegal to speak English.

People don't seem to grasp that there is a distinction between semantics and representation. You can represent the number 85 in many different ways. In binary, in decimal, in hexadecimal. People can copyright a representation of a number but not the number itself. If you were the first human to invent numbers as a concept, you could indeed patent numbers.

Maybe it helps if we compare this to hardware instead. You can design a CPU. The design digital files are under copyright and if you want they can also be a trade secret. However the physical hardware (i.e. the thing whose representation is your digital design files) is not protected by copyright. If you give someone access to design files e.g. via GPL (or in this case by providing the Java standard library). Then any reader of the design files is allowed to look at the arrangement of transistors and then create their own proprietary design files even though your chip design is under GPL. Copyright doesn't protect semantics. It only prevents 1:1 copies of media. When you look at the min function and see a description of its behavior that is semantics. As it stands right now you are allowed to replicate those semantics. There is no monopoly on finding the smallest of two numbers. With the existence of software patents you could in theory patent these semantics.

Now lets get to the actual problem in question. Oracle is providing users with a representation of its java API via javadoc and the standard library deliverables at least under GPL (I am merely assuming this). What does this mean in practice? Well, first of all everyone has access to the representation of the API even if they don't intend to copy it. But as we already established, Google did not copy the java libraries (unless they did which is obviously a copyright violation and they should lose the trial because of that). They merely took the semantics of the java API and built their own independent implementation of the Java standard libraries. APIs cannot be protected under copyright because the semantics of the API can be copied without triggering copyright protections the same way copyrighting your hardware design files does not prevent someone making a copy of the physical manifestation of your hardware. In the hardware world this is solved by patents which do indeed grant a monopoly on semantics. In the software world this should be solved by patents as well.

TL;DR it is possible to create identical hardware without violating copyright of the design files, it is possible to create an identical API without violating copyright of the original source files

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My reading is that the mere use of an API is a method of practice. The problem is Google didn't merely use the API, it reproduced the API entirely and necessarily copied several thousand lines of code in the process. Code itself is generally copyrightable so it is difficult to argue that the specific type of code that makes up the Java API declaration is exempt from this.

Apologies, I didn't express myself well when writing that. I meant that all API code is embodied practice. Thus API code itself is in no way different from ledger templates at issue in Baker . Reproduction of an API in its entirety is no different from reproduction of an embedded practice. Any arguments I've seen so far that argued for parts of API code not being embedded practice were not taking into account how API…

The ledger templates in Baker are the result of following the instructions from the book. Isn't the correct analogue to the API code the instruction book rather than the resulting ledger templates?

Baker says that if you write a book that contains instructions on how to do something, you might own the copyright to that book, but your copyright doesn't extend to the results of other people following your instructions and creating their own versions of that thing. In the actual case it happened to be ledger templates, but it could have been anything else.

For example, if you write a book that describes in detail how to draw an owl, you own the copyright to that book. If I buy your book and then follow your instructions to draw my own owl, I own the copyright to that drawing, not you. Your copyright over your book doesn't also grant you the copyright to my owl drawing just because I followed your instructions.

If Oracle was only alleging that Google's implementation of Java (their version of the ledger templates/owl drawing) infringed on Oracle's copyright of its Java API (the instruction book), I could see how the reasoning in Baker might apply. But here they're alleging something further: that the API (instruction book) itself has been copied.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#693
post #422
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they wanted to lose, wouldn't it have been much easier (and possibly cheaper) to settle? I can't imagine Oracle would have a problem with getting to say they were right, and getting a boatload of cash, without all the bother of the Supreme Court. And doesn't intentional bad representation have weird and costly externalities, like reputation damage for the lawyer? I love the image of Google and Oracle behaving like…

A Supreme Court ruling is a lot better than settlement if they've decided they want to pivot to sueing independent implementations of their APIs. I wouldn't find it compelling to follow if Google took the other side of a settlement they were involved in to go and pursue others. Maybe they settled because they figured out they could make more money that way, regardless of the question of law.

Interesting! Leaves me wondering, what independent implementations of Google APIs are out there?

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're drawing lines in places that best serve your position, rather than considering the whole landscape. "Whole" in the sense of "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" is not generally understood to imply the maximal possible scope in any given context. It's simply meant to meant to talk about how the identify an aggregation (of no particular scale) relates to the identities of its individual components. Sim…

> "Whole" in the sense of "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" is not generally understood to imply the maximal possible scope in any given context. It's simply meant to meant to talk about how the identify an aggregation (of no particular scale) relates to the identities of its individual components. Which is how I'm using it. An API that consists of two functions and one that consists of a billion function…

An API is an invisible thing. It's not in the code. It has absolutely nothing to do with code. You can create an API without any code at all. Therefore copyright does nothing because there are ways of copying an API that do not violate copyright.

Compare it to x86. It's just an "API" as well. Someone can write a specification or reference listing all opcodes and even though that reference is licensed under MIT or GPL you are still not allowed to make your own x86 processor because there is an IP tool specifically designed for this case. It's called patents. Just because you are not violating Intel's copyright doesn't mean you aren't violating Intel's patents.

Google probably didn't violate copyright and probably didn't violate any patents. So it is pretty much clear cut. Oracle failed to patent its API and therefore Google is allowed to use it.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#696

> This is a widespread practice in the software industry. Oracle, for example, re-implemented Amazon's S3 API so that customers who built software for Amazon's cloud platform could easily switch to Oracle's rival cloud platform. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Hope Amazon sues Oracle over this and uses Oracle's arguments against them, claiming judicial estoppel.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#697
post #358
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Google lawyer should be fired. I can’t believe you’d put the best of the best in front of the SC and the guy didn’t even sound like he could describe what an API actually is in non-technical terms. I don’t see how he represented the best legal representation Google could buy.

He also argued that there was only one way Oracle's Java libraries could have been designed, which is clearly false, and the justices picked up on that.

After a (long) while it became clear it meant "there is only way that we might make the full use of the current pool of Java programmers", which is an odd argument to advance — why would they be entitled to draw from that pool of programmers. I think it would have been more compelling if he had focused on the interoperability with the ecosystem of Java libraries.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Oracle wins on copyright (I think it is almost impossible for Google to count to 5 on their merger doctrine argument) but I disagree that fair use is a long shot. The justices that brought up the case’s procedural history were all unanimously skeptical that the Federal Circuit correctly set aside the fair use verdict in favor of Google. I think the most likely outcome of this case (especial…

I agree. Personally, I espouse the "copyright should not exist at all" viewpoint. However, I think in the current legal framework, APIs are clearly copyrightable. However, re-implementing the APIs should obviously be allowed under fair use. Remember that copyright exists solely for the purposes of increasing the production of otherwise-easily-copyable works that take time to create but then are "worthless" (i.e. the…

>Personally, I espouse the "copyright should not exist at all" viewpoint.

Well, the original lawmakers agree. They set a 14 year maximum. In other words: They acknowledged the necessity of copyright but they think it should only be temporary and not exist.

The problem is that it is too damn long nowadays.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of, yeah. Supreme court justices aren't elected, are appointed for life, and collectively have veto power over basically any law, should they choose to break (or gradually discard) historical norms. I think it's telling that neither Biden nor Harris was willing to rule out court-packing at the presidential debates, and at this point I think they're right to leave it on the table! But, it really would mark the be…

I think it's telling that neither Biden nor Harris was willing to rule out court-packing at the presidential debates, and at this point I think they're right to leave it on the table! The correct answer to that question was obviously, "Congress makes the laws, including ones about the number of SC justices, not the President."

“But if you were the president, and a law to add justices came across your desk, would you veto it?”

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#700
post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know the Google lawyer isn't representing the wishes of his client? A little voice in the back of my head wonders if maybe google's position has changed over the years...

Hanlon's razor may apply here: "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" albeit in a different form.

I find Hanlon's razor a wishful thinking at best. I do not think there is any evidence backing it up.
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