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Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

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Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#271
post #228
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Google lawyer should be fired. I can’t believe you’d put the best of the best in front of the SC and the guy didn’t even sound like he could describe what an API actually is in non-technical terms. I don’t see how he represented the best legal representation Google could buy.

Indeed. This was bad representation to the point that I'm wondering if it was intentional. Google might have recently realized that, as a monopoly, fighting for API freedom perhaps isn't in their best interest.

[deleted]

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#272
post #6

This might not just be a disaster for Google - it could be a disaster for software everywhere. If APIs become copyrightable, what happens to any open source software the implements a proprietary API? Supreme court judges just do not have the conceptual framework to properly adjudicate this. I don't think it's going to be possible to teach them the difference between interface and implementation within the parameters…

> This might not just be a disaster for Google - it could be a disaster for software everywhere. Not in the EU where there is precedence with SAP/R3 saying APIs are not copyrightable.

If you can't sell your products in the US, I think you're going to have a problem.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#273

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

I wouldn’t be surprised if Oracle wins on copyright (I think it is almost impossible for Google to count to 5 on their merger doctrine argument) but I disagree that fair use is a long shot. The justices that brought up the case’s procedural history were all unanimously skeptical that the Federal Circuit correctly set aside the fair use verdict in favor of Google. I think the most likely outcome of this case (especial…

I agree. Personally, I espouse the "copyright should not exist at all" viewpoint. However, I think in the current legal framework, APIs are clearly copyrightable. However, re-implementing the APIs should obviously be allowed under fair use.

Remember that copyright exists solely for the purposes of increasing the production of otherwise-easily-copyable works that take time to create but then are "worthless" (i.e. the marginal cost of each additional copy is ~0 or negligible).

From the Constitution itself:

"[the United States Congress shall have power] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

I can see how one can argue that software itself - the actual code - will benefit in the same way (though the myriad successful open source projects and SaaS platforms seem to suggest it's not necessary......). However, I think it's pretty dang clear that limiting the copying of APIs will broadly lead to less software being created. It's well established that, for software, ideas are cheap, and that competitive advantages primarily come from excellent execution and excellent VC funding. If someone re-implements your API and your business folds, it's not because your API was your secret sauce and they stole it. It's because their re-implementation - which, by definition of an API, must be "the exact same thing" - was better than yours. They produced a better product, and the market rewarded them for that.

So, for a legal framework whose purpose, as outlined in the constitution, is to promote the arts and sciences, I think it's pretty clear what the path forward is.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#274

To me the best explanation of an Application Programming Interface (spelling it out on purpose) is really the comparison with industrial machinery. It's really the switches, knobs and levers of a machine that you use to make it do something. I get it that an API being textual throws non-technical people off. But for a programmer functionally there's not much difference between a physical object, like a steering wheel…

Exactly. It would be like a company copyrighting the shape of its proprietary replacement parts, and then suing another company for providing 3rd party replacement parts.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#275
post #6

This might not just be a disaster for Google - it could be a disaster for software everywhere. If APIs become copyrightable, what happens to any open source software the implements a proprietary API? Supreme court judges just do not have the conceptual framework to properly adjudicate this. I don't think it's going to be possible to teach them the difference between interface and implementation within the parameters…

So if Oracle implements a proprietary API in GPL software does that mean that all Oracle software is copyleft?

Little note: what you're really asking is whether the authors of GPL software would have grounds to sue Oracle for copyright infringement.

As another HN commenter put it to me when I made the same mistake: "The GPL is not viral." If one party breaks the terms of the license, then normal copyright goes into effect.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS licenses it's client library as under the Apache License. ( https://github.com/aws/aws-sdk-java/blob/master/LICENSE.txt ) Doesn't that mean anyone can build an interoperable service? I can then benefit from other cloud providers implementing the same API. I don't need access to AWS' source code, I wasn't going to deploy a private cloud anyway. All I want is robust competition.

This has already happened to an extent. For example, there are bunch of API compatible implementations of s3, both oss and proprietary and most of them suggest you use the AWS sdk as a client.

Including, amusingly enough, Oracle:

https://docs.cloud.oracle.com/en-us/iaas/Content/Object/Task...

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#277
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone freaks out about social issues with SCOTUS (which is understandable), but their real impact is on economics. The destruction they've laid on the labor movement and help for big businesses is immense. Just look at the commentary around overturning Chevron deference and non-delegation. Absolutely apocalyptic.

Is it would be positively apocalyptic to reign in the all-powerful unelected fourth branch of government the framers conveniently forgot to list in the constitution. Or to prevent Congress from creating executive branch entities that exercise the powers of all three branches of government. The SEC can make rules, sue you for violating them, and then adjudicate your violation, all under one roof. Pretty sure that’s ex…

>adjudicate your violation, all under one roof.

You still have Article III remedies in that case.

If the extreme version of non-delegation took hold, it would be the end of all rational regulation. Do you REALLY want Congress writing technical documents about effective isotropic radiated power? Or the shape of curb ramps?

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Oracle wins on copyright (I think it is almost impossible for Google to count to 5 on their merger doctrine argument) but I disagree that fair use is a long shot. The justices that brought up the case’s procedural history were all unanimously skeptical that the Federal Circuit correctly set aside the fair use verdict in favor of Google. I think the most likely outcome of this case (especial…

> I think the most likely outcome of this case (especially with the absence of Justice Ginsburg) is a remand to the Federal Circuit with instructions to pay more attention to the trial court’s findings. I think that's somewhat unlikely; I think its somewhat more likely that the court concludes that the Federal Circuit erred in using de novo review, but instead of remanding to the Federal Circuit for reasonableness re…

I gave more weight to a remand than SCOTUS upholding the trial verdict itself primarily because the court is currently shorthanded. I agree that the court prefers to punt for good !

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#279
post #194
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really an important distinction. Social issues like gay marriage and things like this are completely orthogonal. The Democratic Party as a whole is very much neoliberal or liberal as opposed to left. Liberal judges are much the same.

The Democratic Party would be considered center-right in any other country of the world, but the USA.

It depends on how you define things. For example, do you measure by where Democrats end up in practice, or where they want to go? For example, the United States is to the right of Germany in terms of universal healthcare. But Medicare 4 All, where many Democrats appear to want to go in the long term--though they disagree about how quickly they want to get there--would be quite to the left compared to the multi-payor mandatory insurance system currently in place in Germany.

It also varies quite a bit by subject-area. In Germany, the constitutional court held (around the same time as Roe) that legalized abortion was unconstitutional, violating the fetus's right to life. Today, it is technically still illegal, but decriminalized up to 12 weeks. (Shorter than in almost every state in the U.S.) The abortion rate in Germany is much lower. The Democratic party's views on abortion would not be considered center-right in Germany. On gay rights, Germany got legalized same-sex marriage a couple of years after the U.S. And things like surrogacy, which gay male couples often rely on to have kids, is illegal.

Or, consider that Merkel, a member of the center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU) has called for a ban on burqa. To my knowledge, even Trump has not said anything like that. Similarly, on immigration, while Merkel allowed Muslim refugees, her successor declared that a "mistake" which the country had "learned from." Democratic favorability to refugees would not be a center-right position in Germany.

In the area of religion, the U.S. is extremely left wing compared to every country but France. In the U.S., teaching religion (as such) is banned in public schools. In the U.K., Germany, Italy, and Spain (four of the five largest EU countries) it's actually required, either by statute or by the constitution. Children have a right to receive a religious education at the public expense in these countries.

In the area of taxes, the Democratic Party is center-right in some ways but quite left win in others. Merkel has championed Germany following along with Trump's corporate tax cuts. The Democrats' proposal to repeal that would not be a center-right position in Germany. The Democrats' proposal to tax capital gains as ordinary income is quite left wing. Most Western European countries, including Germany, have preferential treatment for capital gains taxes. In general, the U.S. has the most progressive tax code in the OECD: https://opportunitywa.org/u-s-federal-income-tax-structure-m...

But Democrats' tepid support for labor unions, for example, would be considered center-right or even right-wing in Germany.

On the whole, on social, religious, and immigration issues, the current Democratic Party is solidly to the left compared to western Europe. On labor issues, it's to the right. On corporate and investment taxation, it's solidly on the left. On healthcare, its to the right, but mainly for reasons that have to do with minimizing disruption to peoples' current private insurance. Where they want to end up, single payer public insurance, is solidly on the left.

Our next Vice President will very likely be a Democrat who, in 2019, supported single-payer public healthcare, treating capital gains as ordinary income, a 35% corporate income tax rate, a financial transactions tax, publicly funded abortion with no compromises such as waiting periods, Green New Deal, free healthcare for people who immigrate illegally, etc. If she actually believed those things, she would be a solidly mainstream left politician in most European countries.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#280
post #6

This might not just be a disaster for Google - it could be a disaster for software everywhere. If APIs become copyrightable, what happens to any open source software the implements a proprietary API? Supreme court judges just do not have the conceptual framework to properly adjudicate this. I don't think it's going to be possible to teach them the difference between interface and implementation within the parameters…

If APIs become copyrightable, we just have to change our strategy a little bit. Instead of making a compatible API, you write a program to modify other programs, which detects calls to the target API and transforms them to a shim that is not copyrighted, which can call either the copyrighted API or your new API.
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