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Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

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Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have misread what was being said, because you seem to be arguing against something that was explicitly stated to not be the case: > individual recipes are generally not copyrightable , but if you compile a set of recipes and publish them in a cookbook, the cookbook itself becomes copyrightable. (emphasis mine) The law understands that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. And Java adds up a lot of…

> The law understands that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. My point is that "the whole" is the implementation of the Java standard library and the API is really still just the recipe. > It's also an interesting model case because it's inherently so very open, without (particularly pre-Jigsaw) a clearly demarcated dividing line between "API" and "implementation." The line is clear even if the language put…

You're drawing lines in places that best serve your position, rather than considering the whole landscape.

"Whole" in the sense of "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" is not generally understood to imply the maximal possible scope in any given context. It's simply meant to meant to talk about how the identify an aggregation (of no particular scale) relates to the identities of its individual components.

Similarly, the API/not-API distinction is one that has to be made in contexts beyond just the relationship of function signatures to function implementations. Foo was declared as a public class, but was it meant for public consumption? Or is it intended for internal use, and was only declared public because, for practical reasons, it couldn't be declared package-private?

Moreover, there are certainly rational distinctions that could be drawn, but that does not mean that they are legally relevant. The issue at hand really doesn't have anything at all to do with how programmers understand things. The law is not what we think is right, the law is what is written in the books.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#432

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

> As applied to Java, individual method signatures like min and max might not be copyrightable, but someone had to go in and organize those individual methods into classes, and organize those classes into packages. An API doesn't require an implementation and copyright is handed out automatically. Could I then write and run a generator that just starts spitting out endless variations of possible APIs (combinations of…

No, that doesn't feature sufficient creativity.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#433
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that applying utilitarian principles to a strictly deontological framework like the law is pointless, but the API issue is a situation where, regardless of the precedent or ideas about authorship, the adverse impact of a ruling in favor of Oracle on the broader tech sector seems like it should be the cardinal consideration.

This entire topic was discussed during the oral arguments. Google can not prove these adverse effects that they continue to claim will happen. They have had 6 years to do so and yet they can not state a single instance.

Because all of the copyright Trolls are waiting for the court to rule API's are copyrightable.

Although it would be HILARIOUS if Amazon Sues Oracle on day one after the ruling for their copying of the S3 API.

That said there are ALL KINDS of interop code that is at risk with the ruling, only people with their heads in the sand and do not understand the industry at all believe that nothing negative will come about if this ruling stands

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#434
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I corrected the comment. I also find it weird that "conservative" judges are expected to support APIs copyrightability. Is it because conservative is supposed to mean opposed to progress? Declaring APIs copyrightable is going to hurt the progress and technology.

> I also find it weird that "conservative" judges are expected to support APIs copyrightability. They aren't expected to because they are conservative. The judges that acted in a way which (the writer believes) suggests they support Oracle's position happen to also be the conservative justices.

How much of this happen to be is accidental? For me it looks like a pattern. Especially if they are divided by the same lines. Let's wait and see until the final decision though.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#435
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fragmentation is almost never a good thing and it's certainly not a good thing in this case. Allowing developers to use the same knowledge, the same interfaces, the se languages across systems means that consumers benefit. Having a de facto standard is good for everyone, and arguing that there is less innovation in programming because you don't own the rights to function names is ridiculous.

Seems like it could be compared to breaking up a monopoly. When there's one player in town (Java & Android in the two examples I used), any competing ideas never get a chance to succeed: we're still using variations of Java, probably at this point for historical reasons, and Purism etc. is having a real rough go of it. Look at the failed attempts at competing OSes that various phone manufacturers put out. There were…

Let's take your proposal further and let's say we have 20 different languages (some even with non English characters), runtimes, compilers, build systems, UI guidelines, etc will uniform distribution across the world. So even if you want to publish a software for your home country you'll only be able to reach 5% of population with any single tool chain.

Are you willing to learn all those 20 different language/runtime/tool chains?

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#436

Should Oracle win this case, I predict that Free Software licenses will emerge as the clear market choice. Licenses that enshrine interoperability along with the freedom to modify or reimplement in part or wholesale will suddenly provide significantly more value over non-Free software which will be a proprietary minefield and the value will not be for technical but purely from legal liability. Anyone setting out to d…

AWS licenses it's client library as under the Apache License. ( https://github.com/aws/aws-sdk-java/blob/master/LICENSE.txt ) Doesn't that mean anyone can build an interoperable service? I can then benefit from other cloud providers implementing the same API. I don't need access to AWS' source code, I wasn't going to deploy a private cloud anyway. All I want is robust competition.

To me it's not related, the SDK is under the apache licence but it's just an implementation of the API, the API itself is not defined or under the copyright of that SDK.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#438

Should Oracle win this case, I predict that Free Software licenses will emerge as the clear market choice. Licenses that enshrine interoperability along with the freedom to modify or reimplement in part or wholesale will suddenly provide significantly more value over non-Free software which will be a proprietary minefield and the value will not be for technical but purely from legal liability. Anyone setting out to d…

My least favorite part of the arguments was when the US government representative used the existence of open source licenses that explicitly allow copying declarations to claim that it's not commonly believed that such rights don't exist.

"There is a prevalent practice of licensed copying of declarations and often that is done through what is called open-source licensing" ...(6 minutes later) "sometimes, often the license terms don't include the payment of money, they simply include a requirement like whatever improvements you make have to be given back to the programming community. Have to be made known to other potential programmers. But the copyright holders authority to impose and enforce those licenses obviously depends on the proposition that the code is copyrightable to begin with. And so those licenses would be a pointless gesture otherwise and the very fact that they are offered with such frequency tends to dispel the idea that there is a common understanding in the relevant community that this material is not copyrightable at all."

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#439
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Personally, I espouse the "copyright should not exist at all" viewpoint. However, I think in the current legal framework, APIs are clearly copyrightable. However, re-implementing the APIs should obviously be allowed under fair use. Remember that copyright exists solely for the purposes of increasing the production of otherwise-easily-copyable works that take time to create but then are "worthless" (i.e. the…

> copyright should not exist at all Copyright is not just about software. Imagine a world in which you write a novel, let's call it Harry Potter, and publish it. And then I see people liking it, so I publish it too, but I can sell it cheaper because I don't have to recoup the costs of having written it. Or imagine you write and record a song, let's call it Revolution. A shoe company can use that exact recording in an…

The creative arts existed long before copyright was a thing

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#440

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

Having read multiple perspectives, some pro-Google and some pro-Oracle, I cannot reconcile this sort of argument with the Baker v. Selden precedent. [1]

Perhaps my understanding of APIs is different because I'm an engineer and not a lawyer, but how is this not an open and shut case?

The cookbook analogy is not applicable for the same reason one could not apply it in Baker, accounting methods are not of themselves copyrightable creative works. (They may be patentable, but I believe patentability is NOT at issue here.)

Selecting and arranging recipes requires creativity. I do not believe API code of a math library is in any way the same level, having designed hundreds of APIs and several SDKs myself. Perhaps creating a specification upon which the API design based upon is, but that leads right back to Baker. What am I missing here?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Selden

Edit: And if you think about it, an API code is really just a set of templated forms for conveyance of data between systems. In this sense it is really no different from the accounting ledger templates in Baker.

Second edit: It would be worthwhile to enlighten the judges on the early history of computer programs and their ties to recipes which should make the cookbook analogy and its potential misapplication here even more obvious.

Third edit: Another line of enquiry would be to discuss differences between API contracts and APIs. They are not the same, though often confused, even by practicing software engineers.

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