Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#301

Post by crazygringo » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:22 PM UTC

Does anyone have any idea, if Oracle wins, what the ramifications for Google/Android will be?

Because Android is so entrenched, there's no "going back". Google merely paying a fine doesn't change the fact it's still using Java API's moving forwards. Google would have to license the Java API from Oracle... but then who sets the price? Oracle could set something absurdly 1000x higher than reasonable by holding the entire Android ecosystem hostage, no? Would the court decide not just penalties for past usage, but a negotiation for future usage? How would they determine that? (And if they did, couldn't that create a moral hazard? Companies steal IP from someone who refuses to sell, get "too big to fail", and get to keep the stolen IP in the end.)

I'm not familiar with how the law relates to ongoing conflicts that are so massive they can't be undone without great harm to individuals and businesses far beyond the actual parties in dispute.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#302

Post by secondcoming » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

drstewart wrote: post #217

neves wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Democratic Party would be considered center-right in any other country of the world, but the USA.

The DNC would be center right in Saudi Arabia? By what metric? What is with the ridiculous hyperbole that's so common when talking about America on the internet, especially by non-Americans? Talk about "American exceptionalism" - just in a different way.

Well, what's going on in America is being pushed down the throats of everyone in the world. You can hardly read an article without someone mentioning Trump and US politics in general. We may as well join in too!

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#303

Post by luckylion » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

cashewchoo wrote: post #273

granzymes wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Oracle wins on copyright (I think it is almost impossible for Google to count to 5 on their merger doctrine argument) but I disagree that fair use is a long shot. The justices that brought up the case’s procedural history were all unanimously skeptical that the Federal Circuit correctly set aside the fair use verdict in favor of Google. I think the most likely outcome of this case (especial…

I agree. Personally, I espouse the "copyright should not exist at all" viewpoint. However, I think in the current legal framework, APIs are clearly copyrightable. However, re-implementing the APIs should obviously be allowed under fair use. Remember that copyright exists solely for the purposes of increasing the production of otherwise-easily-copyable works that take time to create but then are "worthless" (i.e. the…

> They produced a better product, and the market rewarded them for that.

You could make that same argument about patents in general, couldn't you? If you invent something, say, a new battery, and somebody else copies it, doesn't have your R&D-costs invested and prices it accordingly lower than you, the market will "reward them" by buying from them instead of you, they're getting the same thing after all.

We do want some stability though, if you invest money to create something and somebody immediately copies it, you're not going to invest money again. We want you to invest money to advance humanity with new technology and knowledge though.

Since there's no re-implementation without looking at the original, it feels sufficiently close to taking your buddy's homework and saying "no worries, I will change it a bit" and you'll have Math.add(a, b) and while they wrote return a + b;, you'll write return b + a;, you're not copying after all.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#304

Post by ghaff » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #120

binarybits wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but this is not an accurate summary of the state of the law. Whether Android's implementation of Java was fair use is one of the questions the Supreme Court is considering. Google was absolutely trying to achieve interoperability with Java, so if Google loses it would make it more difficult for others to claim fair use. Fair use is complicated so others might succeed where Google failed, but a loss for Google…

I don't believe that Google was really trying to achieve interoperability. If it was then they would have passed the Java Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK) tests. Other companies did that and are legally in the clear for their Java implementations. Why didn't Google?

Because they were too arrogant to do so? Note that Microsoft was eventually forced to make peace with Sun over Java after a long lawsuit.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#305

Post by luckylion » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

hugi wrote: post #269

nodamage wrote: post #240

I'm not sure why so many people here seem to be surprised by this, I got the exact same impression from the hearing. The problem for Google on the copyrightability front is that "compilations" of non-copyrightable items can be copyrightable even if the underlying items themselves are not, if the "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of those items involves sufficient creativity to be considered an "original work…

If I'd publish a cookbook with the same chapters and recipe names as a different cookbook, but every recipe my own creation from scratch; I wouldn't consider that copyright infringement.

Can you even create a recipe from scratch after you've learned the recipe from somebody else, will it not always be a derivative work at best, and a copy at worst? Sure, you can add or remove an egg, or change the order or when to add salt or pepper, but an omelette is an omelette.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#306

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #301

Does anyone have any idea, if Oracle wins, what the ramifications for Google/Android will be? Because Android is so entrenched, there's no "going back". Google merely paying a fine doesn't change the fact it's still using Java API's moving forwards. Google would have to license the Java API from Oracle... but then who sets the price? Oracle could set something absurdly 1000x higher than reasonable by holding the enti…

> Does anyone have any idea, if Oracle wins, what the ramifications for Google/Android will be?

I understand that Android currently uses OpenJDK, under its public license, so I think the ramifications will be "Google pays buttloads of money to Oracle for past misuse and continues happily on its way". At least as far as the Java APIs are concerned; there will be lawsuits flying back and forth everywhere in the industry over every other reused API that isn't explicitly licensed, which will probably also effect Android in some way.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#307

Post by bencollier49 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

This would have protected the IBM PC BIOS wouldn't it? The BIOS interrupts are an API. Would it not also apply in retrospect? Could IBM not sue everyone who ever made a clone now? Or is there a statute of limitations?

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#308

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #117

Aqueous wrote: post #6

This might not just be a disaster for Google - it could be a disaster for software everywhere. If APIs become copyrightable, what happens to any open source software the implements a proprietary API? Supreme court judges just do not have the conceptual framework to properly adjudicate this. I don't think it's going to be possible to teach them the difference between interface and implementation within the parameters…

That's not really the court's responsibility. There is no legal definition of "interface" or "implementation". They're just trying to interpret a gray area in the law and it could come down either way. Any real solution will have to be legislated.

> That's not really the court's responsibility.

Yes, it is.

> There is no legal definition of "interface" or "implementation".

There is a legal definition of what is included, and what is excluded, from copyrightability, and (though its quite fuzzy, in large part because it was trying to incorporate a fuzzy judicial doctrine grounded in the First Amendment into the statute) what is included, and excluded, from "fair use" even if it otherwise violated copyright.

The courts job is very much to test existing concrete things against those definitions.

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#309

Post by moonchild » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #260

gojomo wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, Amazon isn't objecting. So, Oracle can say: we're "doing it" with permission.

If this case goes the wrong way Oracle may find itself the subject of a lawsuit.

They surely know that. Java is a bigger money maker for them than cloud. (Large parts of amazon's cloud are implemented in java.)

Re: Google’s Supreme Court faceoff with Oracle was a disaster for Google

#310

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

burtonator wrote: post #51

Aqueous wrote: post #6

This might not just be a disaster for Google - it could be a disaster for software everywhere. If APIs become copyrightable, what happens to any open source software the implements a proprietary API? Supreme court judges just do not have the conceptual framework to properly adjudicate this. I don't think it's going to be possible to teach them the difference between interface and implementation within the parameters…

So if Oracle implements a proprietary API in GPL software does that mean that all Oracle software is copyleft?

> So if Oracle implements a proprietary API in GPL software does that mean that all Oracle software is copyleft?

No, not at all.

OTOH, it does mean if they implement a GPL interface in proprietary software it does mean that they are in violation of copyright (barring a fair use defense) and the GPL, potentially triggering the loss-of-license provisions of the GPL and other legal consequences.